[Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

Discussion:

Satdeep Gill

2018-08-01 18:55:49 UTC

Hi all,

I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this on
Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions.

I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to
Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also
some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania.

All this can help ensure trust of the wider Wikimedia community in our
processes and decisions.

I do want to hear why was it deemed necessary for the WMIN President to be
present at that informal meetup during Wikimania.

I do know that for some other Chapters whose chairperson's were not
attending Wikimania, some editor Board/EC member attended the meetup on
their behalf.

I expect to hear more about this.

Regards
Satdeep Gill

Community Outreach Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers>
Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_Wikimedians>
Member, Affiliations Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee>
Member, Language Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee>

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 17:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town
without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was
he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who
were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting
doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there
were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/attachments/20180727/0bc24b91/attachment-0001.html
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
------------------------------
End of Wikimediaindia-l Digest, Vol 1465, Issue 1
*************************************************

Abhinav srivastava

2018-08-02 05:43:33 UTC

Permalink

Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,

I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having
expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from
the notion of âConstantly enduring in fights amongst themselvesâ. The
mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly
in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a
behaviour.

While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring,
debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been
better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value
judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a
better manner. Otherwise, we havenât progressed at all.

As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired
and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
mail.

Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India, I
would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the
community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say,
Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from
their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of
its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we
requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee
members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and
others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been
fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for
on having supported Bodhisattwa.

Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened
to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and
your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you.
Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also
a very senior member and having been associated as a staff in few of the
institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be in a very similar
position, an experienced community who is questioning with no so proper
tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the community members
in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.

Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other
thread. This issue requires much more gravity. A lot of things have been
happening without community being informed anything. This just not concerns
one person. Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates
conference was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia
Conference. To my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the
conference were invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what
was the need to make this exercise secret in nature. Again, only to my
understanding, this was organised by Centre for Internet and Society. Like
Subhashish has mentioned, need for a consensus, share it on Wiki for
transparency or not, participants create Learning Patterns and write report
etc. Such things should happen here too. Also, is there an event page on
Meta about this meeting?

To my CIS friends, nothing personal here, the argument on transparency has
been happening so I though of voicing my views. I would advise you to keep
informing the community of your activities, I cannot find any monthly work
reports which used to be shared earlier. In fact, the meta page does not
even provide a 2018 section for reports. Please look into this, we are in
the 8th month of the year. My piece of advice would be let someone
volunteer and create your reports, if you do not have staff at the moment.
Just like Wikimedia India were reports are created by volunteers.

At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your
voice but maintain friendly spirt.

Thanks,

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi all,
I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this on
Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions.
I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to
Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also
some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania.
All this can help ensure trust of the wider Wikimedia community in our
processes and decisions.
I do want to hear why was it deemed necessary for the WMIN President to be
present at that informal meetup during Wikimania.
I do know that for some other Chapters whose chairperson's were not
attending Wikimania, some editor Board/EC member attended the meetup on
their behalf.
I expect to hear more about this.
Regards
Satdeep Gill
Community Outreach Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers>
Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_Wikimedians>
Member, Affiliations Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee>
Member, Language Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee>
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 17:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Subhashish Panigrahi

2018-08-02 06:09:44 UTC

Permalink

Totally agree, Abhinav. Much appreciate for highlighting the friendly space
aspect as that is very important (and is a very difficult balancing act).

For some context, esp. those who are not in the Wikimania list, sharing
below what I wrote there earlier.
<quote>

Though Iâm not sure if itâd be right to take names here, but this is
probably an opportunity to discuss about:

- if there is a need for consensus when a Wikimedia affiliate provides
support to one person from another affiliate
- if an affiliate provides support if they share it on wiki for
transparency or not
- Wikimania scholarship recipients generally create Learning Patterns and
write reports. These are good practices in general but making it mandatory
for the scholarship recipients brings out a really valuable pool of
knowledge which otherwise might not be the case because of the post-
Wikimania fatigue. There is a need for more clarity if non-Wikimania
participants (individual/affiliate reps) who travel because of support from
another affiliate should also produce the same
- If an affiliate decides to provide support, should they announce publicly
(on regional mailman lists and meta/village pumps) if there is any
conflict. If there was a rationale that the former used to identify certain
individuals, should they share that as well?

I think discussing these above would be useful in general.

<unquote>

I'd reiterate that it is important to discuss about issues because the
larger problem is about organizational processes (and open and transparent
nature of the same) rather than an individual. So IMO the subject of
discussion is is not Rahul but how organizational supports are provided.

I generally agree with Abhinav's points. Also, much appreciate Wikimedia
India leadership for their contribution to the movement in difficult times.

That said, there is a need to discuss about the issues that concern the
larger Indian community, and both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are two major
stakeholders. It would be great to hear from each side how they see this.

About the Bangalore meeting prior to WMCON, I joined as an Odia Wikimedians
UG rep, and shared the outcomes of the same with my community in serveral
occasions. I didn't create an LP and I still hold myself accountable for
the same.

On the last bit about CIS-A2K's reporting, I personally don't think a team
that is paid can be compared to an organization that is run by volunteers.
Maybe an intern can do it, but the community might be interested to
volunteer to write CIS-A2K's reports. Again, my personal view.

Subhashish

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,
I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having
expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from
the notion of âConstantly enduring in fights amongst themselvesâ. The
mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly
in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a
behaviour.
While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring,
debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been
better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value
judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a
better manner. Otherwise, we havenât progressed at all.
As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired
and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
mail.
Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India,
I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the
community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say,
Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from
their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of
its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we
requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee
members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and
others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been
fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for
on having supported Bodhisattwa.
Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened
to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and
your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you.
Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also
a very senior member and having been associated as a staff in few of the
institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be in a very similar
position, an experienced community who is questioning with no so proper
tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the community members
in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.
Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other
thread. This issue requires much more gravity. A lot of things have been
happening without community being informed anything. This just not concerns
one person. Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates
conference was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia
Conference. To my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the
conference were invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what
was the need to make this exercise secret in nature. Again, only to my
understanding, this was organised by Centre for Internet and Society. Like
Subhashish has mentioned, need for a consensus, share it on Wiki for
transparency or not, participants create Learning Patterns and write report
etc. Such things should happen here too. Also, is there an event page on
Meta about this meeting?
To my CIS friends, nothing personal here, the argument on transparency has
been happening so I though of voicing my views. I would advise you to keep
informing the community of your activities, I cannot find any monthly work
reports which used to be shared earlier. In fact, the meta page does not
even provide a 2018 section for reports. Please look into this, we are in
the 8th month of the year. My piece of advice would be let someone
volunteer and create your reports, if you do not have staff at the moment.
Just like Wikimedia India were reports are created by volunteers.
At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your
voice but maintain friendly spirt.
Thanks,

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi all,
I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this on
Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions.
I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to
Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also
some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania.
All this can help ensure trust of the wider Wikimedia community in our
processes and decisions.
I do want to hear why was it deemed necessary for the WMIN President to
be present at that informal meetup during Wikimania.
I do know that for some other Chapters whose chairperson's were not
attending Wikimania, some editor Board/EC member attended the meetup on
their behalf.
I expect to hear more about this.
Regards
Satdeep Gill
Community Outreach Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers>
Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_Wikimedians>
Member, Affiliations Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee>
Member, Language Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee>
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 17:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town
without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was
he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who
were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting
doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there
were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/
attachments/20180727/0bc24b91/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
------------------------------
End of Wikimediaindia-l Digest, Vol 1465, Issue 1
*************************************************

Bodhisattwa Mandal

2018-08-02 06:32:04 UTC

Permalink

Hi Abhinav,

Thanks for your mail.

I understand, as a past EC member of WMIN, you are feeling bad with my
tone, for that I am sorry. I request you to ignore my tone and discuss
about my question. How can a non-scholarship recipient and not in the
waiting list be selected to attend Wikimania with donation money depriving
those who were in the waiting list. I just want to know about the
documentation, so that everything becomes clear to me.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired
and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
mail.
Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India,
I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the
community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say,
Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from
their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of
its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we
requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee
members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and
others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been
fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for
on having supported Bodhisattwa.

For that, I am always thankful to WMIN, specially Yohann and you, as I got
support when it was badly needed. I have never forgotten that and will
never forget. But things have changed now in WMIN. I along with other
patricipants in the conference from India have heard of future plans and
incidents related to present WMIN president, which are not in the spirit of
the Wikimedia movement. If you want to know about those, I can tell, others
can confirm, if they are true or not.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened
to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and
your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you.
Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also
a very senior member and having been associated as a staff in few of the
institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be in a very similar
position, an experienced community who is questioning with no so proper
tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the community members
in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.

It is completely new for me, or may be I have completely forgotten, when
did that happen that some senior member objected against my Wikimania
participation on an Indian language village pump. Can you please send me
the link of that discussion, so that I can remember everything. Pardon my
retrograde amnesia, may be I am getting old and my memory cells are not
working as before. As it was my second Wikimania and luckily I got a full
scholarship to attend the conference, I am really interested to see that
discussion and comprehend from the point of objection again. Please send me
the link, dont forget, please.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your
voice but maintain friendly spirt.

As I said before, please, my friend, ignore my tone and stick to the
question I asked.

Waiting for your reply,

Bodhisattwa

Abhinav srivastava

2018-08-02 07:46:05 UTC

Permalink

Hello Bodhisattwa, Subhashish, Satdeep and All,

Thanks for Writing Back!

To avoid the jumping up of issues, I have listed them point-wise, in case I
have missed any please feel free to add.

1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate tone
and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since
the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on
this.

2. As highlighted by Subhashish, it is essentially the problem of
organizational process. I would like to add that the role is essentially
not restricted to Wikimedia India or CIS-A2K but also User Groups and
Wikimedia Foundation Staff. All need to look coherent and work together.
For instance, Satdeep is often questioned for being part-time WMF employee,
being AffCom Committee member (attending the Berlin Conference in this
capacity) and then Wikimania (attending as a volunteer). Not only the
Indian community but also foundation needs to reflect on this. Having a say
in recognizing User Groups in India and simultaneously being holding India
Outreach Office. Satdeep, my friend, nothing personal, but better
understanding can be made here.

3. Bengaluru Meetings: Subhashish, my question is why is community
made ignorant about such meeting. Your previous message only tells me that
you were part of it. Like the healthy bullet points you have shared, you
should have initiated the same process out there. You knew about the
meeting and attended it. The amount of experience you carry, you should be
more careful and lead other fellow community members.

4. I believe there is nothing bounding CIS-A2K staff from hiring
someone to do their reports. I believe they could have already done that.
All I meant, CIS-A2K has such a big staff base still someone cannot find
time to share it on the mailing list and even if someone visits their
official Meta page â Report Section, one does not even find 2018 listed.

Additional Comments â

5. Bodhisattwa, the details on your Wikimania trip have been shared on
your personal email address. I would request you to acknowledge the same
here.

6. Bodhisattwa, last time I voted in Indian General Elections 2014, I
had come to know that Rs 15 lakh would come in my bank account. Neither did
I vote for that person, nor it has reached me. I am putting this on the
official record, the day I receive it, I will donate entire money to
Wikimedia projects ð

Is there a substance to what you are hearing? I do not know what is this
about, but if there is any paperwork please share it. Otherwise, no
speculative talk on the mailing list, please. A strict No!

(Can Drop Additional Comments )

Abhinav

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 12:02 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
Thanks for your mail.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently
inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
mail.
Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India,
I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the
community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say,
Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from
their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of
its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we
requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee
members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and
others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been
fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for
on having supported Bodhisattwa.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there
happened to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning
you and your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in
supporting you. Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who
questioned then is also a very senior member and having been associated as
a staff in few of the institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be
in a very similar position, an experienced community who is questioning
with no so proper tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the
community members in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your
voice but maintain friendly spirt.

As I said before, please, my friend, ignore my tone and stick to the
question I asked.
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Bodhisattwa Mandal

2018-08-02 11:44:53 UTC

Permalink

Hi Abhinav,

1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate tone

Post by Abhinav srivastava
and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since
the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on
this.

Sorry missed this part,

Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said that,
if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me, my
tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?

So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the topic in
which the thread was initiated, that would be great.

Thanks
Bodhisattwa

Abhinav srivastava

2018-08-02 12:01:02 UTC

Permalink

Hello Bodhisattwa,

The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .

Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.

I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response from
WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed, subsequently. I hope
you would be in consent with this.

I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and allegations. I
would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia India pays any
attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I am not EC)
Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.

Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many emails.
I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them together.
This would otherwise lead to spamming.

Abhinav

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate tone

Post by Abhinav srivastava
and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since
the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on
this.

Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the topic
in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Asaf Bartov

2018-08-02 21:03:26 UTC

Permalink

Folks,

As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses
defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
*in a separate thread*.

I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
representative of the entire movement in India. *Please* don't respond
with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some poor governance
or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would appreciate you
for doing the right thing.

If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by all
means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how
that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
welcomed by the community on this mailing list.

I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another, but
please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread, and
let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and insinuations.

Warmly,

Asaf

[1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies for
our movement? it is here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public...

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattwa,
The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .
Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response from
WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed, subsequently. I
hope you would be in consent with this.
I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and allegations.
I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia India pays
any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I am not EC)
Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
Abhinav
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate tone

Post by Abhinav srivastava
and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and since
the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to respond on
this.

Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the topic
in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Abhinav srivastava

2018-08-03 03:20:37 UTC

Permalink

Hello Asaf,

In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.

Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
that. I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
we wish to learn more of this.

In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us
on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am
not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
community to decide.

Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.

At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.

To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal query,
please.

Abhinav

Post by Asaf Bartov
Folks,
As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses
defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
*in a separate thread*.
I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
representative of the entire movement in India. *Please* don't respond
with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some poor governance
or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would appreciate you
for doing the right thing.
If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by all
means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how
that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another, but
please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread, and
let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and insinuations.
Warmly,
Asaf
[1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies for
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public...

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattwa,
The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .
Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response
from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed,
subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this.
I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and allegations.
I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia India pays
any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I am not EC)
Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
Abhinav
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate

tone and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and
since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to
respond on this.

Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the topic
in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Asaf Bartov

2018-08-03 04:29:44 UTC

Permalink

Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
I also described another possible scenario.

A.

On Aug 3, 2018 06:21, "Abhinav srivastava" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Asaf,

In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.

Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
that. I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
we wish to learn more of this.

In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us
on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am
not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
community to decide.

Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.

At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.

To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal query,
please.

Abhinav

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattwa,
The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .
Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response
from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed,
subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this.
I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and allegations.
I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia India pays
any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I am not EC)
Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
Abhinav
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate

tone and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and
since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to
respond on this.

Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the topic
in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Tito Dutta

2018-08-03 07:11:59 UTC

Permalink

Hello,
I, on behalf of CIS-A2K would like to clarify our position regarding Mr.
Rahul Deshmukh/WMIN representative's participation in Wikimania 2018.

We unconditionally apologise for not sending out information to community
and mailing lists about this support extended by A2K.

We received an official email from WMIN representative requesting support
towards participation. This email thread was addressed to Program Manager
of A2K, and was copied to WMIN EC. CIS-A2K extended its support based on
this request.

We assure that we will maintain transparency with our future communication.

Thanks
Tito Dutta
Note: If I don't reply to your email in 2 days, please feel free to remind
me over email or phone call.

Post by Asaf Bartov
Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
I also described another possible scenario.
A.
Hello Asaf,
In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
that. I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
we wish to learn more of this.
In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide us
on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I am
not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
community to decide.
Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.
At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.
To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal query,
please.
Abhinav

Post by Asaf Bartov
Folks,
As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses
defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
*in a separate thread*.
I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
representative of the entire movement in India. *Please* don't respond
with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some poor governance
or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would appreciate you
for doing the right thing.
If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by
all means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how
that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another,
but please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread,
and let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and
insinuations.
Warmly,
Asaf
[1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public...

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattwa,
The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .
Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response
from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed,
subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this.
I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and
allegations. I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia
India pays any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I
am not EC) Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
Abhinav
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate

tone and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and
since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to
respond on this.

Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the
topic in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Bodhisattwa Mandal

2018-08-03 07:51:09 UTC

Permalink

Hi Tito,

Thanks for the clarification from the part of CIS-A2K.

It is clear now from your reply, that the WMIN president sent a request to
CIS-A2K to support for his participation in Wikimania and CIS-A2K responded
positively as this was an official request from an affiliate
representative, I guess.

By the way, did he mention the cause of his participation as an WMIN
representative in the same conference, where already 2 EC members got full
scholarship to attend. Like my first mail, I am still having the question,
what extra value was targeted to be added in the conference by WMIN
president, which could not have been achieved by the 2 EC members and and
thus came the dire necessity to send another member with donation money?

Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Tito Dutta
Hello,
I, on behalf of CIS-A2K would like to clarify our position regarding Mr.
Rahul Deshmukh/WMIN representative's participation in Wikimania 2018.
We unconditionally apologise for not sending out information to community
and mailing lists about this support extended by A2K.
We received an official email from WMIN representative requesting support
towards participation. This email thread was addressed to Program Manager
of A2K, and was copied to WMIN EC. CIS-A2K extended its support based on
this request.
We assure that we will maintain transparency with our future communication.
Thanks
Tito Dutta
Note: If I don't reply to your email in 2 days, please feel free to remind
me over email or phone call.

Post by Asaf Bartov
Folks,
As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses
defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
*in a separate thread*.
I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
representative of the entire movement in India. *Please* don't respond
with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some poor governance
or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would appreciate you
for doing the right thing.
If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by
all means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how
that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another,
but please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread,
and let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and
insinuations.
Warmly,
Asaf
[1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public...

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattwa,
The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .
Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response
from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed,
subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this.
I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and
allegations. I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia
India pays any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I
am not EC) Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
Abhinav
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate

tone and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and
since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to
respond on this.

Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the
topic in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Abhinav srivastava

2018-08-03 08:17:19 UTC

Permalink

Hello Asaf, Tito, Bodhi and others,

Bodhisattwa: Although Wikimedia India is yet to reply it would be in the
best interest that Wikimedia India also incorporates the question put up by
Bodhisattwa.

Tito: Coming out publicly is a welcome step and also apologizing. The
point 3 and 4 effectively concerns CIS-A2K in the different capacity. I
have asked about it on a separate mail thread. It would be great if we can
listen from your team.

Asaf: Indeed, you did point out about many different scenarios. Most of
them caution about being appropriate and maintaining friendly space policy
simultaneously. In the recent past, Wikimedia India has remained friendly
and I am sure they will continue to remain so. Thank You for the caution
and reminding though.

I was also expecting to hear on Point 2 which concerns resolving disputes
in the organizational process and resolving the conflict. While I did
provide a suggestion, I would like to hear from you.

What methods can the community adopt?

A suggestion in this regard would be highly advisable.

Thanks,

Abhinav

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 1:21 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Tito,
Thanks for the clarification from the part of CIS-A2K.
It is clear now from your reply, that the WMIN president sent a request to
CIS-A2K to support for his participation in Wikimania and CIS-A2K responded
positively as this was an official request from an affiliate
representative, I guess.
By the way, did he mention the cause of his participation as an WMIN
representative in the same conference, where already 2 EC members got full
scholarship to attend. Like my first mail, I am still having the question,
what extra value was targeted to be added in the conference by WMIN
president, which could not have been achieved by the 2 EC members and and
thus came the dire necessity to send another member with donation money?
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Tito Dutta
Hello,
I, on behalf of CIS-A2K would like to clarify our position regarding Mr.
Rahul Deshmukh/WMIN representative's participation in Wikimania 2018.
We unconditionally apologise for not sending out information to community
and mailing lists about this support extended by A2K.
We received an official email from WMIN representative requesting support
towards participation. This email thread was addressed to Program Manager
of A2K, and was copied to WMIN EC. CIS-A2K extended its support based on
this request.
We assure that we will maintain transparency with our future
communication.
Thanks
Tito Dutta
Note: If I don't reply to your email in 2 days, please feel free to
remind me over email or phone call.

Post by Asaf Bartov
Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
I also described another possible scenario.
A.
Hello Asaf,
In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
that. I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
we wish to learn more of this.
In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide
us on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I
am not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
community to decide.
Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.
At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.
To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal
query, please.
Abhinav

Post by Asaf Bartov
Folks,
As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this
one thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses
defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
*in a separate thread*.
I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its
membership and to the broader communities in India, to address
Bodhisattwa's concern directly and politely, as befits an organization
aiming to be representative of the entire movement in India. *Please*
don't respond with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some
poor governance or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up
to it, apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would
appreciate you for doing the right thing.
If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by
all means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how
that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another,
but please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread,
and let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and
insinuations.
Warmly,
Asaf
[1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public...

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattwa,
The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .
Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response
from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed,
subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this.
I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and
allegations. I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia
India pays any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I
am not EC) Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
Abhinav
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate

tone and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and
since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to
respond on this.

Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the
topic in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Amritasya Putra

2018-08-03 04:36:35 UTC

Permalink

Why doesnât my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like three
years.

Post by Asaf Bartov
Folks,
As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses
defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
*in a separate thread*.
I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
representative of the entire movement in India. *Please* don't respond
with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some poor governance
or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would appreciate you
for doing the right thing.
If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by
all means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how
that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another,
but please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread,
and let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and
insinuations.
Warmly,
Asaf
[1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public...

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattwa,
The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .
Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response
from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed,
subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this.
I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and
allegations. I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia
India pays any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I
am not EC) Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
Abhinav
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate

tone and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and
since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to
respond on this.

Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the
topic in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Subhashish Panigrahi

2018-08-03 11:22:51 UTC

Permalink

(@Amritasya: please note, your's an off-topic discussion here)
It does, and those who are subscribers to the list can see your mail. You
can always check the archive (
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/) to check if your
mail has made it to the discussion or not.

You can write to the mailing list moderators (
wikimediaindia-l-***@lists.wikimedia.org) if you sent something to the
list and it never made it to a discussion on time.

Subhashish

Post by Amritasya Putra
Why doesnât my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like three
years.

Post by Asaf Bartov
Folks,
As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses
defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
*in a separate thread*.
I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
representative of the entire movement in India. *Please* don't respond
with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some poor governance
or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would appreciate you
for doing the right thing.
If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by
all means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how
that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another,
but please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread,
and let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and
insinuations.
Warmly,
Asaf
[1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public...

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattwa,
The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .
Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response
from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed,
subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this.
I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and
allegations. I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia
India pays any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I
am not EC) Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
Abhinav
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate

tone and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and
since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to
respond on this.

Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the
topic in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Dr. Manavpreet Kaur

2018-08-03 11:23:36 UTC

Permalink

Hi Asaf, Wikimedia India community members and CIS A2K Team,

I am sorry for intervening in this whole discussion but I feel the
discussion is deviating from the primary concern as we have received
another mail where a number of concerns have been raised in response to the
primary issue raised by Bodhi. My subscription was faulty and thanks to
Sailesh who fixed it and I got a digest of emails. From what I've learned
through the emails, Wikimedia India representatives are usually sent to
attend the annual wiki gatherings like Wikimedia Conference and this time
it was Wikimania. I am sorry to state that we (community) have never been
approached by anyone from the Chapter to discuss issues, events, Training
or to offer some assistance. We have only one point of contact for all our
issues and plans and that is CIS A2K Team. When Wikimedia India Chapter is
not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the
movement ahead, then what is the purpose of their representatives attending
these events, what do they have to impart to other wikimedians there? and
how are they using the learnings in progressing the movement?
Can someone please clearly address these questions and then we can discuss
the other issues raised in the different thread.

Regards,
Manavpreet Kaur

Post by Amritasya Putra
Why doesnât my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like three
years.

Post by Asaf Bartov
Folks,
As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this one
thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses
defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
*in a separate thread*.
I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its membership
and to the broader communities in India, to address Bodhisattwa's concern
directly and politely, as befits an organization aiming to be
representative of the entire movement in India. *Please* don't respond
with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some poor governance
or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up to it,
apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would appreciate you
for doing the right thing.
If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by
all means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how
that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another,
but please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread,
and let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and
insinuations.
Warmly,
Asaf
[1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_
mistake_and_it%27s_public...

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattwa,
The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .
Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response
from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed,
subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this.
I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and
allegations. I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia
India pays any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I
am not EC) Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
Abhinav
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate

tone and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and
since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to
respond on this.

Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the
topic in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Yohann Thomas

2018-08-06 03:46:40 UTC

Permalink

Dear Manavpreet

You have been part of the Indian community for a few years. But I'm not
surprised, you don't know, why the chapter is not giving as much support
or training to the community, as CIS-A2K does.

I will answer this question on a separate thread on the India Mailing list
which should be informative for you & other community members who have such
doubts.

Regards,
Yohann

Post by Dr. Manavpreet Kaur
Hi Asaf, Wikimedia India community members and CIS A2K Team,
I am sorry for intervening in this whole discussion but I feel the
discussion is deviating from the primary concern as we have received
another mail where a number of concerns have been raised in response to the
primary issue raised by Bodhi. My subscription was faulty and thanks to
Sailesh who fixed it and I got a digest of emails. From what I've learned
through the emails, Wikimedia India representatives are usually sent to
attend the annual wiki gatherings like Wikimedia Conference and this time
it was Wikimania. I am sorry to state that we (community) have never been
approached by anyone from the Chapter to discuss issues, events, Training
or to offer some assistance. We have only one point of contact for all our
issues and plans and that is CIS A2K Team. When Wikimedia India Chapter is
not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the
movement ahead, then what is the purpose of their representatives attending
these events, what do they have to impart to other wikimedians there? and
how are they using the learnings in progressing the movement?
Can someone please clearly address these questions and then we can discuss
the other issues raised in the different thread.
Regards,
Manavpreet Kaur
On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 3:42 PM, Amritasya Putra <

Post by Amritasya Putra
Why doesnât my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like
three years.

Post by Asaf Bartov
Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
I also described another possible scenario.
A.
Hello Asaf,
In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
that. I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
we wish to learn more of this.
In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide
us on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I
am not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
community to decide.
Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.
At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.
To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal
query, please.
Abhinav

Post by Asaf Bartov
Folks,
As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this
one thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses
defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
*in a separate thread*.
I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its
membership and to the broader communities in India, to address
Bodhisattwa's concern directly and politely, as befits an organization
aiming to be representative of the entire movement in India. *Please*
don't respond with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some
poor governance or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up
to it, apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would
appreciate you for doing the right thing.
If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by
all means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how
that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another,
but please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread,
and let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and
insinuations.
Warmly,
Asaf
[1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public...

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattwa,
The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .
Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response
from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed,
subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this.
I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and
allegations. I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia
India pays any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I
am not EC) Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
Abhinav
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate

tone and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and
since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to
respond on this.

Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the
topic in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Bodhisattwa Mandal

2018-08-06 04:11:46 UTC

Permalink

Thanks Yohann for creating separate thread for discussion other than the
main topic of this thread.

Sticking to the thread topic, I am more eager to get a reply from WMIN for
my 5 questions, which I have put in this thread yesterday. I hope you will
find them among the diverted, off-topic and unrelated discussions going on.

My questions were pretty straightforward, and I do expect straightforward
answers for them, not receiving them till now is obviously frustrating.

Eagerly waiting for your reply
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
Dear Manavpreet
You have been part of the Indian community for a few years. But I'm not
surprised, you don't know, why the chapter is not giving as much support
or training to the community, as CIS-A2K does.
I will answer this question on a separate thread on the India Mailing list
which should be informative for you & other community members who have such
doubts.
Regards,
Yohann
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 16:54 Dr. Manavpreet Kaur, <

Post by Dr. Manavpreet Kaur
Hi Asaf, Wikimedia India community members and CIS A2K Team,
I am sorry for intervening in this whole discussion but I feel the
discussion is deviating from the primary concern as we have received
another mail where a number of concerns have been raised in response to the
primary issue raised by Bodhi. My subscription was faulty and thanks to
Sailesh who fixed it and I got a digest of emails. From what I've learned
through the emails, Wikimedia India representatives are usually sent to
attend the annual wiki gatherings like Wikimedia Conference and this time
it was Wikimania. I am sorry to state that we (community) have never been
approached by anyone from the Chapter to discuss issues, events, Training
or to offer some assistance. We have only one point of contact for all our
issues and plans and that is CIS A2K Team. When Wikimedia India Chapter is
not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the
movement ahead, then what is the purpose of their representatives attending
these events, what do they have to impart to other wikimedians there? and
how are they using the learnings in progressing the movement?
Can someone please clearly address these questions and then we can
discuss the other issues raised in the different thread.
Regards,
Manavpreet Kaur
On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 3:42 PM, Amritasya Putra <

Post by Amritasya Putra
Why doesnât my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like
three years.

Post by Asaf Bartov
Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
I also described another possible scenario.
A.
Hello Asaf,
In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
that. I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
we wish to learn more of this.
In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide
us on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I
am not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
community to decide.
Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.
At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have
also written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.
To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal
query, please.
Abhinav

Post by Asaf Bartov
Folks,
As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this
one thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses
defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
*in a separate thread*.
I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its
membership and to the broader communities in India, to address
Bodhisattwa's concern directly and politely, as befits an organization
aiming to be representative of the entire movement in India. *Please*
don't respond with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some
poor governance or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up
to it, apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would
appreciate you for doing the right thing.
If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by
all means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how
that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another,
but please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread,
and let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and
insinuations.
Warmly,
Asaf
[1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public...
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 3:01 PM Abhinav srivastava <

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattwa,
The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time,
you stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .
Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response
from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed,
subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this.
I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and
allegations. I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia
India pays any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I
am not EC) Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
Abhinav
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate

tone and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and
since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to
respond on this.

Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only
said that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry.
To me, my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I
have noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing
list, so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person
involved, otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless.
Everything I said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from
India participating in the conference knew about it and had the same
question in mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is
no response from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the
topic in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Amritasya Putra

2018-08-02 06:36:17 UTC

Permalink

My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly.

Regards.

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi all,
I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this on
Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions.
I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to
Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also
some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania.
All this can help ensure trust of the wider Wikimedia community in our
processes and decisions.
I do want to hear why was it deemed necessary for the WMIN President to
be present at that informal meetup during Wikimania.
I do know that for some other Chapters whose chairperson's were not
attending Wikimania, some editor Board/EC member attended the meetup on
their behalf.
I expect to hear more about this.
Regards
Satdeep Gill
Community Outreach Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers>
Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_Wikimedians>
Member, Affiliations Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee>
Member, Language Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee>
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 17:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Bodhisattwa Mandal

2018-08-02 09:00:41 UTC

Permalink

Hi Abhinav,

1) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to see
that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki where
i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself to
anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it
will remain between us. I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone
appropriate, but attacking someone personally was never my intention. I
question about the non-transparent and undocumented process which happened
and its a fact. I still find my question extremely relevant and valid,
which still remains unanswered.

6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were
true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have
first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not
revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of
that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it..

Thanks,

Post by Amritasya Putra
My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly.
Regards.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,
I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having
expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from
the notion of âConstantly enduring in fights amongst themselvesâ. The
mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly
in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a
behaviour.
While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring,
debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been
better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value
judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a
better manner. Otherwise, we havenât progressed at all.
As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently
inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
mail.
Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India,
I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the
community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say,
Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from
their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of
its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we
requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee
members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and
others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been
fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for
on having supported Bodhisattwa.
Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there
happened to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning
you and your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in
supporting you. Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who
questioned then is also a very senior member and having been associated as
a staff in few of the institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be
in a very similar position, an experienced community who is questioning
with no so proper tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the
community members in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.
Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other
thread. This issue requires much more gravity. A lot of things have been
happening without community being informed anything. This just not concerns
one person. Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates
conference was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia
Conference. To my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the
conference were invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what
was the need to make this exercise secret in nature. Again, only to my
understanding, this was organised by Centre for Internet and Society. Like
Subhashish has mentioned, need for a consensus, share it on Wiki for
transparency or not, participants create Learning Patterns and write report
etc. Such things should happen here too. Also, is there an event page on
Meta about this meeting?
To my CIS friends, nothing personal here, the argument on transparency
has been happening so I though of voicing my views. I would advise you to
keep informing the community of your activities, I cannot find any monthly
work reports which used to be shared earlier. In fact, the meta page does
not even provide a 2018 section for reports. Please look into this, we are
in the 8th month of the year. My piece of advice would be let someone
volunteer and create your reports, if you do not have staff at the moment.
Just like Wikimedia India were reports are created by volunteers.
At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your
voice but maintain friendly spirt.
Thanks,

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi all,
I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this
on Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions.
I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to
Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also
some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania.
All this can help ensure trust of the wider Wikimedia community in our
processes and decisions.
I do want to hear why was it deemed necessary for the WMIN President to
be present at that informal meetup during Wikimania.
I do know that for some other Chapters whose chairperson's were not
attending Wikimania, some editor Board/EC member attended the meetup on
their behalf.
I expect to hear more about this.
Regards
Satdeep Gill
Community Outreach Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers>
Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_Wikimedians>
Member, Affiliations Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee>
Member, Language Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee>
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 17:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town
without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was
he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who
were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting
doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there
were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/
attachments/20180727/0bc24b91/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
------------------------------
End of Wikimediaindia-l Digest, Vol 1465, Issue 1
*************************************************

--
Bodhisattwa

Bodhisattwa Mandal

2018-08-02 09:01:52 UTC

Permalink

sorry, few corrections,

Hi Abhinav,

1) I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone appropriate, but
attacking someone personally was never my intention. I question about the
non-transparent and undocumented process which happened and its a fact. I
still find my question extremely relevant and valid, which still remains
unanswered.

5) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to see
that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki where
i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself to
anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it
will remain between us.

6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were
true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have
first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not
revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of
that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it..

Thanks,

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
1) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to
see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki
where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself
to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it
will remain between us. I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone
appropriate, but attacking someone personally was never my intention. I
question about the non-transparent and undocumented process which happened
and its a fact. I still find my question extremely relevant and valid,
which still remains unanswered.
6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were
true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have
first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not
revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of
that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it..
Thanks,

Post by Amritasya Putra
My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly.
Regards.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,
I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having
expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from
the notion of âConstantly enduring in fights amongst themselvesâ. The
mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly
in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a
behaviour.
While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring,
debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been
better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value
judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a
better manner. Otherwise, we havenât progressed at all.
As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently
inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
mail.
Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia
India, I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of
the community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally
say, Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid
from their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one
of its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we
requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee
members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and
others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been
fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for
on having supported Bodhisattwa.
Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there
happened to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning
you and your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in
supporting you. Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who
questioned then is also a very senior member and having been associated as
a staff in few of the institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be
in a very similar position, an experienced community who is questioning
with no so proper tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the
community members in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.
Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other
thread. This issue requires much more gravity. A lot of things have been
happening without community being informed anything. This just not concerns
one person. Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates
conference was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia
Conference. To my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the
conference were invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what
was the need to make this exercise secret in nature. Again, only to my
understanding, this was organised by Centre for Internet and Society. Like
Subhashish has mentioned, need for a consensus, share it on Wiki for
transparency or not, participants create Learning Patterns and write report
etc. Such things should happen here too. Also, is there an event page on
Meta about this meeting?
To my CIS friends, nothing personal here, the argument on transparency
has been happening so I though of voicing my views. I would advise you to
keep informing the community of your activities, I cannot find any monthly
work reports which used to be shared earlier. In fact, the meta page does
not even provide a 2018 section for reports. Please look into this, we are
in the 8th month of the year. My piece of advice would be let someone
volunteer and create your reports, if you do not have staff at the moment.
Just like Wikimedia India were reports are created by volunteers.
At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your
voice but maintain friendly spirt.
Thanks,

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi all,
I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this
on Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions.
I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to
Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also
some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania.
All this can help ensure trust of the wider Wikimedia community in our
processes and decisions.
I do want to hear why was it deemed necessary for the WMIN President to
be present at that informal meetup during Wikimania.
I do know that for some other Chapters whose chairperson's were not
attending Wikimania, some editor Board/EC member attended the meetup on
their behalf.
I expect to hear more about this.
Regards
Satdeep Gill
Community Outreach Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers>
Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_Wikimedians>
Member, Affiliations Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee>
Member, Language Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee>
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 17:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town
without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was
he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who
were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting
doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there
were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/atta
chments/20180727/0bc24b91/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
------------------------------
End of Wikimediaindia-l Digest, Vol 1465, Issue 1
*************************************************

--
Bodhisattwa

Bodhisattwa Mandal

2018-08-02 09:02:54 UTC

Permalink

sorry again, few corrections from my side about the numbering,

Hi Abhinav,

1) I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone appropriate, but
attacking someone personally was never my intention. I question about the
non-transparent and undocumented process which happened and its a fact. I
still find my question extremely relevant and valid, which still remains
unanswered.

5) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to see
that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki where
i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself to
anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it
will remain between us.

6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were
true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have
first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not
revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of
that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it..

Thanks,

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
sorry, few corrections,
Hi Abhinav,
1) I already said, I am sorry if you find my tone appropriate, but
attacking someone personally was never my intention. I question about the
non-transparent and undocumented process which happened and its a fact. I
still find my question extremely relevant and valid, which still remains
unanswered.
5) Got your personal mail and the link. I never knew that and amazed to
see that discussion was going on behind my back in another language Wiki
where i am not even part of. And although I didn't have to justify myself
to anyone, still I opened few glimpse of my personal life to you, hoping it
will remain between us.
6) I dont have hard evidence now, but if what we heard in Wikimania were
true, time will tell everything. By the way, some of the participants have
first-hand hearsay experience about those plans, but as those are not
revealed publicly by anyone, I am also not interested to discuss any of
that. Lets wait and see if they were bluff or had any truth in it..
Thanks,

Post by Amritasya Putra
My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly.
Regards.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,
I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having
expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from
the notion of âConstantly enduring in fights amongst themselvesâ. The
mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly
in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a
behaviour.
While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring,
debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been
better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value
judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a
better manner. Otherwise, we havenât progressed at all.
As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently
inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back.
Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing
list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the
mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your
mail.
Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia
India, I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of
the community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally
say, Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid
from their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one
of its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies
started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we
requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee
members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and
others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been
fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for
on having supported Bodhisattwa.
Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there
happened to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning
you and your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in
supporting you. Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who
questioned then is also a very senior member and having been associated as
a staff in few of the institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be
in a very similar position, an experienced community who is questioning
with no so proper tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the
community members in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.
Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other
thread. This issue requires much more gravity. A lot of things have been
happening without community being informed anything. This just not concerns
one person. Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates
conference was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia
Conference. To my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the
conference were invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what
was the need to make this exercise secret in nature. Again, only to my
understanding, this was organised by Centre for Internet and Society. Like
Subhashish has mentioned, need for a consensus, share it on Wiki for
transparency or not, participants create Learning Patterns and write report
etc. Such things should happen here too. Also, is there an event page on
Meta about this meeting?
To my CIS friends, nothing personal here, the argument on transparency
has been happening so I though of voicing my views. I would advise you to
keep informing the community of your activities, I cannot find any monthly
work reports which used to be shared earlier. In fact, the meta page does
not even provide a 2018 section for reports. Please look into this, we are
in the 8th month of the year. My piece of advice would be let someone
volunteer and create your reports, if you do not have staff at the moment.
Just like Wikimedia India were reports are created by volunteers.
At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your
voice but maintain friendly spirt.
Thanks,

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi all,
I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this
on Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions.
I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to
Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also
some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania.
All this can help ensure trust of the wider Wikimedia community in our
processes and decisions.
I do want to hear why was it deemed necessary for the WMIN President
to be present at that informal meetup during Wikimania.
I do know that for some other Chapters whose chairperson's were not
attending Wikimania, some editor Board/EC member attended the meetup on
their behalf.
I expect to hear more about this.
Regards
Satdeep Gill
Community Outreach Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/New_Readers>
Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_Wikimedians>
Member, Affiliations Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliations_Committee>
Member, Language Committee
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Language_committee>
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 at 17:30, Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town
without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was
he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who
were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting
doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there
were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/atta
chments/20180727/0bc24b91/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
------------------------------
End of Wikimediaindia-l Digest, Vol 1465, Issue 1
*************************************************

--
Bodhisattwa

Subhashish Panigrahi

2018-08-02 09:02:56 UTC

Permalink

Thanks Abhinav for all of this.

About #3: I indeed reached out to A2K staff and asked about the same questions that you asked me. I cannot day for them and Iâd like to assume good faith, but I myself received the venue details late. I personally wanted everything to be done publicly, and discussed widely. But I was a participant rather than an organizer. The way and means of a meeting are not in my hands.

Secondly, I prefer in an approach of reflecting on the past and focus only on the learning. For me as a Wikimedian, sharing something useful with the community is important, and I believe I did that with my home community. Could I have done better? For sure, yes. I just didnât have the bandwidth to write a blog post, or create a learning pattern at that point of time. I had my own disagreements as well. But I think there were valuable takeaways and I want to congratulate A2K for bringing those people for two days. Iâd personally try (and have tried to do some in the last couple of engagements with the community) to fill the gaps that I experienced there.

Similarly, the points that I shared earlier were not to blame A2K or Rahul or WMIN, but to see the possibility of bettering the process. Maybe we all messed up small or big, and there is a way to better in our future work.

Iâm committing to engage more openly and transparently as a long time Wikimedian, and a representative of the Odia Wikimedians User Group.

Cheers!
Subhashish

Post by Amritasya Putra
My opinion: The sermonising-in-public-tone is also unfriendly.
Regards.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Satdeep, Bodhisattwa and All,
I believe the response to the first statement put by Satdeep, on having expected more discussions, stands firm, Indian community has advanced from the notion of âConstantly enduring in fights amongst themselvesâ. The mailing list have largely remained positive and most importantly friendly in nature for some time now. Indian community needs this kind of a behaviour.
While Bodhisattwa was absolutely democratic and correct in inquiring, debating or in fact questioning this issue, his tone could have been better. When the issue requires clarity of information, putting value judgements along with taking names, I believe this could have been put in a better manner. Otherwise, we havenât progressed at all.
As far as Wikimania mailing list is concerned, I too subsequently inquired and I find response has been provided for the same, two days back. Bodhisattwa has been subsequently replying. Also, the respective mailing list advises that the issue is a different matter and not relevant for the mailing list. Satdeep, you did not inform about this information in your mail.
Bodhisattwa, as a past executive committee member of the Wikimedia India, I would like to say Wikimedia India always believes in the will of the community being the will of the executive committee. I can personally say, Chapter having no money, the Executive committee members have paid from their pockets to provide all the necessary support. You were also one of its recipients for Internet scholarship until some telecom companies started providing very pocket friendly price internet services and we requested you to shift (Reliance Jio). The several executive committee members did not earn still they paid from their pocket to support you and others. We did it because we always believed in you, your work has been fantastic even community members used to express their happiness to us for on having supported Bodhisattwa.
Like the allegation today, even two years back on Wikimania there happened to be an allegation on an Indian language village pump, concerning you and your travel. The Chapter paid no heed and remained firm in supporting you. Unnamed and unmentioned, I would say the editor who questioned then is also a very senior member and having been associated as a staff in few of the institutions which concerns us. Today, you seem to be in a very similar position, an experienced community who is questioning with no so proper tone and taking names. Bodhisattwa, you should lead the community members in promoting friendly space not doing the opposites.
Now, coming to responses made by Satdeep and Subhashish on the other thread. This issue requires much more gravity. A lot of things have been happening without community being informed anything. This just not concerns one person. Correct me if I am wrong, but this summer an affiliates conference was organised in Bengaluru, just before the Berlin Wikimedia Conference. To my understanding, all delegates were supposed to attend the conference were invited and others who reside in Bengaluru. But then, what was the need to make this exercise secret in nature. Again, only to my understanding, this was organised by Centre for Internet and Society. Like Subhashish has mentioned, need for a consensus, share it on Wiki for transparency or not, participants create Learning Patterns and write report etc. Such things should happen here too. Also, is there an event page on Meta about this meeting?
To my CIS friends, nothing personal here, the argument on transparency has been happening so I though of voicing my views. I would advise you to keep informing the community of your activities, I cannot find any monthly work reports which used to be shared earlier. In fact, the meta page does not even provide a 2018 section for reports. Please look into this, we are in the 8th month of the year. My piece of advice would be let someone volunteer and create your reports, if you do not have staff at the moment. Just like Wikimedia India were reports are created by volunteers.
At last, Bodhisattwa, my friend, like Satdeep and Subhashish raise your voice but maintain friendly spirt.
Thanks,

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi all,
I expected more discussion on this. Although, Subhashish reposted this on Wikimania mailing list and asked some really good questions.
I agree with Subha that if an affiliate decides to send someone to Wikimania then the whole selection process should be transparent and also some reporting guidelines should be established similar to Wikimania.
All this can help ensure trust of the wider Wikimedia community in our processes and decisions.
I do want to hear why was it deemed necessary for the WMIN President to be present at that informal meetup during Wikimania.
I do know that for some other Chapters whose chairperson's were not attending Wikimania, some editor Board/EC member attended the meetup on their behalf.
I expect to hear more about this.
Regards
Satdeep Gill
Community Outreach Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation
Co-founder, Punjabi Wikimedians
Member, Affiliations Committee
Member, Language Committee

Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town
without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was
he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who
were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting
doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there
were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/attachments/20180727/0bc24b91/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
------------------------------
End of Wikimediaindia-l Digest, Vol 1465, Issue 1
*************************************************