[Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi,

WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town
without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was
he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who
were in the waiting list.

He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting
doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there
were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.

To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.

Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

[Yohann Thomas]

Dear Bodhi & other community members

First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is
run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers &
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a
delay in drafting a reply.

As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.

Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially
independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with
regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.

Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in
community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the
Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018

With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal.

Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.

Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India

----

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town
without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was
he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who
were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting
doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there
were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Yohann,

Thanks for your mail.

If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.

In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga,
were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of
WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of
donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his
presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?

Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa


On 3 Aug 2018 6:05 pm, "Yohann Thomas" <***@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Bodhi & other community members

First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is
run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers &
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a
delay in drafting a reply.

As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.

Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially
independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with
regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.

Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in
community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the
Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018

With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal.

Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.

Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India

----

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town
without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was
he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who
were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting
doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there
were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Yohann Thomas]

(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)

Hi Bodhi

I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can
give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.

//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018

With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //


Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is
run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers &
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a
delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially
independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with
regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in
community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the
Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why
was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India
who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Yohann,

Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.


I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
word.

My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.

1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.

2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
the documentation of his invitation?

[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018

[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there
were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there
with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not
at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting
of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or
incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?

4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?

5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?

I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
personally.

Waiting for your detailed reply,

Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can
give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India
is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers &
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a
delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially
independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with
regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in
community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why
was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India
who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Bodhisattva,

Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.

Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many
value-judgments with un-friendly tone.





On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.

If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict
Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so
many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from
India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome
step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward
for future course, every thing is documented.

He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing
Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is
Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a
defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request,
he must on record have recieved an invitation.

It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far. Also,
please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia
India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff
or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there
were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there
with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not
at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal
meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit
or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?

This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do
with the other Two EC.

Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the
meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'.
It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee
invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?

I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else
would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.

Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the
conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?

In response to statement 4.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to
give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a
welcome step.

I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This is
my personal observation.

Abhinav

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I
can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India
is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers &
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a
delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially
independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with
regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in
community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why
was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India
who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________

Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

I was expecting a reply from WMIN.

Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many
value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.

If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict
Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so
many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from
India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome
step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward
for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing
Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is
Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
the documentation of his invitation?
[1]
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a
defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request,
he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far.
Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from
Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays.
WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?

This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do
with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the
meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'.
It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee
invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?

I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else
would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the
conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?

In response to statement 4.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to
give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a
welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This
is my personal observation.
Abhinav

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I
can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link
below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India
is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers &
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a
delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is
fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles
in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why
was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India
who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
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To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
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[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -

What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put it).

Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better standard and fix if something is broken. :)

A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in that process need to be more transparent.

Subhashish

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many value-judgments with un-friendly tone.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.

If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far. Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?

This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'. It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?

I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?

In response to statement 4.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This is my personal observation.
Abhinav

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----

Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________
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[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Subhashish,

I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -

Yes ! The issue is much larger.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons
meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an
informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal
meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the
movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as
less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really
justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as
you rightly put it).

I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity. I am not
too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a
'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ? Through
reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we all
such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the Meta
Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon and
then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions. Thank
You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.

Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe
refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done. It would be a great
learning experience for delegrates attending next year Wikimedia
Conference. :) . Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from the topic.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an
organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as
a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better
standard and fix if something is broken. :)

Of Course ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a
welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India
Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend
only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.

Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong
Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania
in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South
Afrcia.

This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is
discussed. Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space
for other volunteers could just be one step.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in
general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community
to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways)
A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way
they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist)
seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey
area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus
process involved in that process need to be more transparent.

Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key. I am glad that CIS-A2K stood
firm in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in
my previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a
speaker are two different subjects. I am not sure if judgements such as
'grey areas' should be made but Yes it calls for a discussion on how things
should work upon.

The consensus process is also something that calls for a discussion. From
informing the team members to taking consensus, the community's will on
this should be recorded with the Chapter. It is nice to hear that EC was
copied in the request mail and aderance to transparecy is being made.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Subhashish

P.S : I may be slow in responses to future mails for the next 6 days. I am
no travel.

Abhinav

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many
value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to
make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal
meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now,
if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the
meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting.
Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.

If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict
Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so
many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from
India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome
step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward
for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing
Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is
Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you
provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1]
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a
defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request,
he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far.
Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from
Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays.
WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?

This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do
with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the
meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'.
It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee
invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?

I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else
would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the
conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?

In response to statement 4.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to
give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a
welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This
is my personal observation.
Abhinav

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I
can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link
below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia
India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion
on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid
volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India,
there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is
fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles
in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why
was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India
who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
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[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Subhashish

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Subhashish,
I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -

Yes ! The issue is much larger.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put it).

I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity. I am not too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?

No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania in the first place for various reasons.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions. Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.

I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community. The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.

I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own community.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next year Wikimedia Conference. :) . Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from the topic.

It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread instead.

Post by Abhinav srivastava

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better standard and fix if something is broken. :)

Of Course ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.

It was a suggestion from Ravi and not something set in stone.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South Afrcia.

What’s the point here? Wikimedians from India are a subset of a much larger community and there are Wikimedians who have attended all the Wikimanias. Where you’re going with this statement?

Post by Abhinav srivastava
This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is discussed. Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space for other volunteers could just be one step.

Still not sure. I don’t remember very well but I probably will check again from the archives - Phoebe shared a long note earlier. If one Wikimedian from India does not apply for a scholarship it doesn’t mean that another Wikimedian from India would receive it. Not sure if it works that way.

Post by Abhinav srivastava

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in that process need to be more transparent.

Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key. I am glad that CIS-A2K stood firm in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in my previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a speaker are two different subjects. I am not sure if judgements such as 'grey areas' should be made but Yes it calls for a discussion on how things should work upon.
The consensus process is also something that calls for a discussion. From informing the team members to taking consensus, the community's will on this should be recorded with the Chapter. It is nice to hear that EC was copied in the request mail and aderance to transparecy is being made.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Subhashish

P.S : I may be slow in responses to future mails for the next 6 days. I am no travel.
Abhinav

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many value-judgments with un-friendly tone.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.

If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far. Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?

This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'. It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?

I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?

In response to statement 4.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This is my personal observation.
Abhinav

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----

Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
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[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Abhinav,

Please stop diverting the topic. If those other discussions are important
for you, please start separate new threads. My questions were directed to
WMIN, please let them respond.

Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Subhashish
Hello Subhashish,
I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -

Yes ! The issue is much larger.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons
meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an
informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal
meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the
movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as
less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really
justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as
you rightly put it).

I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity. I am not
too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a
'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal
meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal
talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and
workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania
in the first place for various reasons.
Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact,
we all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on
the Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked
upon and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions.
Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe
refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying
to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community.
The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I
shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.
I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own community.
It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next year
Wikimedia Conference. :) . Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from
the topic.
It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread instead.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an
organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as
a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better
standard and fix if something is broken. :)

Of Course ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a
welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India
Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend
only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.
It was a suggestion from Ravi and not something set in stone.
Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong
Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania
in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South
Afrcia.
What’s the point here? Wikimedians from India are a subset of a much
larger community and there are Wikimedians who have attended all the
Wikimanias. Where you’re going with this statement?
This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is
discussed. Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space
for other volunteers could just be one step.
Still not sure. I don’t remember very well but I probably will check again
from the archives - Phoebe shared a long note earlier. If one Wikimedian
from India does not apply for a scholarship it doesn’t mean that another
Wikimedian from India would receive it. Not sure if it works that way.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in
general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community
to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways)
A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way
they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist)
seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey
area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus
process involved in that process need to be more transparent.

Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key. I am glad that CIS-A2K stood
firm in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in
my previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a
speaker are two different subjects. I am not sure if judgements such as
'grey areas' should be made but Yes it calls for a discussion on how things
should work upon.
The consensus process is also something that calls for a discussion. From
informing the team members to taking consensus, the community's will on
this should be recorded with the Chapter. It is nice to hear that EC was
copied in the request mail and aderance to transparecy is being made.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Subhashish

P.S : I may be slow in responses to future mails for the next 6 days. I am no travel.
Abhinav

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many
value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to
make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal
meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now,
if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the
meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting.
Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.

If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict
Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so
many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from
India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome
step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward
for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing
Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is
Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you
provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1]
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a
defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request,
he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far.
Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from
Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays.
WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?

This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do
with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the
meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'.
It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee
invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?

I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else
would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the
conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend
the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because
Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?

In response to statement 4.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited
to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a
welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This
is my personal observation.
Abhinav

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I
can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link
below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that
many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia
India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion
on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid
volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India,
there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is
fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles
in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want
to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in
relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter
before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on
different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory
hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter
is going through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in
Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question
is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from
India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
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[Abhinav srivastava]

Hello Bodhisattwa,

I won't be available from tomorrow onwards as stated in my previous mail. I
would like to reply to Subhashish, this evening.

I am a bit surprised because of I when I wrote a clarification you simply
discarded and wrote, "Let WMIN reply". As advised to you on Wikimania
mailing list, it would have been better if you had raised these directly
with the EC. Since it is on a public mailing list, I am free to voice my
opinion.

Responses to Subhashish in line.



On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 8:13 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
Please stop diverting the topic. If those other discussions are important
for you, please start separate new threads. My questions were directed to
WMIN, please let them respond.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Subhashish
Hello Subhashish,
I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 6:15 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -

Yes ! The issue is much larger.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons
meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an
informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal
meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the
movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as
less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really
justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as
you rightly put it).

I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity. I am not
too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a
'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?
No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal
meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal
talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and
workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania
in the first place for various reasons.

I would like to hear and learn more about what calls this an informal

meetup. Just because it is an Affiliate Meetup, it begins to hold little
relevance. I am not of this opinion.
This is the first time Wikimedia India person was called to speak and so
much controversy over it. While the International Mailing List largely
calls this issue 'not-required', our very own Indians have an issue with
it.

I would like to place on record, when Wikimedia India had funds, the
Chapter annual plans endorsed by community stated one individual from the
community and one executive commitee member. But the Chapter stayed firm in
recognising the importance of the community and used to sponser both spots
to its community members.

On an invitation, executive commitee member visited and so much issues.

Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the
Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon
and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions.
Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe
refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.
I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying
to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community.
The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I
shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.

Yes ! You did not said so. I apologise for that. Since you were voicing
over the Internet I though so. Sorry Agian, about that.
Thank You for recognising that Bengaluru meeting is no longer a priority.
Being a party to one episode and simultaneously voicing your concerns on
another episode. I am confused on this.

Don't mind but can you please share relevant links

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own community.
It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next
year Wikimedia Conference. :) . Please Note : No Attempts to deviate
from the topic.
It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread instead.

Okay. Your Concerns Understood.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an
organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as
a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better
standard and fix if something is broken. :)

Of Course ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is
a welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia
India Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to
attend only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.
It was a suggestion from Ravi and not something set in stone.

Let's not take names. I said myself it is an idea.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong
Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania
in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South
Afrcia.
What’s the point here? Wikimedians from India are a subset of a much
larger community and there are Wikimedians who have attended all the
Wikimanias. Where you’re going with this statement?

I am sorry for if this has hurt you down. Of Course ! You are free to

attend All Wikimania's.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania
is discussed. Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making
space for other volunteers could just be one step.
Still not sure. I don’t remember very well but I probably will check
again from the archives - Phoebe shared a long note earlier. If one
Wikimedian from India does not apply for a scholarship it doesn’t mean that
another Wikimedian from India would receive it. Not sure if it works that
way.

A Global Village.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in
general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community
to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways)
A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way
they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist)
seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey
area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus
process involved in that process need to be more transparent.

Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key. I am glad that CIS-A2K stood
firm in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in
my previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a
speaker are two different subjects. I am not sure if judgements such as
'grey areas' should be made but Yes it calls for a discussion on how things
should work upon.
The consensus process is also something that calls for a discussion. From
informing the team members to taking consensus, the community's will on
this should be recorded with the Chapter. It is nice to hear that EC was
copied in the request mail and aderance to transparecy is being made.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Subhashish

P.S : I may be slow in responses to future mails for the next 6 days. I am no travel.
Abhinav

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too
many value-judgments with un-friendly tone.
On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 12:27 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to
make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal
meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now,
if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the
meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting.
Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.

If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict
Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so
many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from
India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome
step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward
for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing
Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is
Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you
provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1]
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a
defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request,
he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far.
Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from
Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays.
WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?

This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to
do with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the
meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'.
It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee
invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same.
Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for
volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation
money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and
supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can
you please explain that?

I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else
would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the
conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend
the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because
Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?

In response to statement 4.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also,
I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take
it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited
to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a
welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter.
This is my personal observation.
Abhinav

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want,
I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link
below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that
many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia
India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion
on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid
volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India,
there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is
fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different
roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional
roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers
around the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want
to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in
relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter
before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on
different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory
hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter
is going through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in
Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question
is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from
India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
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[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Subhashish

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattwa,
I won't be available from tomorrow onwards as stated in my previous mail. I would like to reply to Subhashish, this evening.
I am a bit surprised because of I when I wrote a clarification you simply discarded and wrote, "Let WMIN reply". As advised to you on Wikimania mailing list, it would have been better if you had raised these directly with the EC. Since it is on a public mailing list, I am free to voice my opinion.
Responses to Subhashish in line.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Abhinav,
Please stop diverting the topic. If those other discussions are important for you, please start separate new threads. My questions were directed to WMIN, please let them respond.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Subhashish

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Subhashish,
I would put a few of my reflections. Responses in line.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just to clarify, my responses below are not about Rahul at all but in general -

Yes ! The issue is much larger.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
What Bodhi wrote earlier makes sense, “participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup”. A Wikimania participant gets to attend many such informal meetups, and I’d like to believe that they certainly add value to the movement. But participation in such small little occasion (not small as less worthy but small as compared to a large formal event) does not really justify a 3-4 day-long travel which affects one’s personal/work life (as you rightly put it).

I believe judgements should only be made based on objectivity. I am not too sure if being a speaker on a global platform can be called upon as a 'such small little occassion'. Then, how do we make judgements ?

No judgements. Still stand by my words. Speaking slot in an ‘informal meetup’ that is attended by a small set of people is smaller than a formal talk in a formal event. But then, many Wikimedians whose talks and workshops get selected at Wikimania don’t get a chance to attend Wikimania in the first place for various reasons.

I would like to hear and learn more about what calls this an informal meetup.

Something that is not in the main Wikimania schedule as an open event for all during the three days during the scheduled sessions. Being in a physical space gives communities an opportunity to get together and discuss. It’s no less valuable though. But arguing that someone’s travel is valid for participation in one such meeting is a bit too much.

Just because it is an Affiliate Meetup, it begins to hold little relevance. I am not of this opinion.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
This is the first time Wikimedia India person was called to speak and so much controversy over it. While the International Mailing List largely calls this issue 'not-required', our very own Indians have an issue with it.
I would like to place on record, when Wikimedia India had funds, the Chapter annual plans endorsed by community stated one individual from the community and one executive commitee member. But the Chapter stayed firm in recognising the importance of the community and used to sponser both spots to its community members.
On an invitation, executive commitee member visited and so much issues.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Through reports, learning patterns, minutes of the meeting etc. In fact, we all such contemplate on the reports and learning patterns as found on the Meta Page. It clearly states how this agenda would be further worked upon and then taken up in the next meeting. We all should give suggestions. Thank You, Subhashish for bringing up the issue of reporting.
Also, Subhashish, now that you have appropriate bandwidth, I believe refelctions on the Bengaluru meetup can be done.

I never said I have the appropriate bandwidth now. :) In fact, I’m trying to reflect on something that is recent - Wikimania - with the community. The Bangalore meeting is no longer a priority for me at the moment. I shared the notes with the community right after the meeting.

Yes ! You did not said so. I apologise for that. Since you were voicing over the Internet I though so. Sorry Agian, about that.
Thank You for recognising that Bengaluru meeting is no longer a priority. Being a party to one episode and simultaneously voicing your concerns on another episode. I am confused on this.

I was a participant. There was an Etherpad (I can search it when online from computer but others who were there in the meeting can fill in if I get back late).

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Don't mind but can you please share relevant links

I shared the Etherpad link with the community. Many are active on social media and I pinged them on chat. There was nothing big for Odia but there were some that were relevant.

Again, the Bangalore discussion is irrelevant here.

Post by Abhinav srivastava

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
I thought I shared the fact that I had shared the discussions with my own community.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
It would be a great learning experience for delegrates attending next year Wikimedia Conference. :) . Please Note : No Attempts to deviate from the topic.

It’s clearly deviating from the main topic. Better to start a new thread instead.

Okay. Your Concerns Understood.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi

Post by Abhinav srivastava

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Also, I personally think that if a question is directed towards an organization, it’s better to wait for sometime until they get back. We, as a community, have quite some time now until next Wikimania to set a better standard and fix if something is broken. :)

Of Course ! Both Wikimedia India and CIS-A2K are responsive and this is a welcome step. I would like to bring to attention, once the Wikimedia India Program Director had initiated an idea that particular volunteer to attend only two Wikimania and in turn leave space for other volunteers.

It was a suggestion from Ravi and not something set in stone.

Let's not take names. I said myself it is an idea.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Some of our community members have been visiting Wikimania like from Hong Kong Wikimania in 2013, United Kingdom Wikimania in 2014, Mexico Wikimania in 2015, Italy Wikimania in 2016, Canadan Wikimania in 2017 and now South Afrcia.

What’s the point here? Wikimedians from India are a subset of a much larger community and there are Wikimedians who have attended all the Wikimanias. Where you’re going with this statement?

I am sorry for if this has hurt you down. Of Course ! You are free to attend All Wikimania's.

Why should it hurt me? :)

No, it doesn’t, and I’m open to discuss about what value I brought back to the community after participating in Wikimania.

Sorry to say this, but this is really offtopic discussion to drag towards one person when we should be discussing about community and organizational policies. I might stop replying back if you keep inserting threads that are dragging the discussion to something else. I can send you offlist what I’m doing after coming back from Wikimania. One of them is I have recorded and uploaded about 1900 audio recording — after attending a session on Lingua Libre — on Commons, and all those recordings will make their way to Wiktionary.

I’m certainly free as a Wikimedian to decide whether I apply for a scholarship or not. :)

Post by Abhinav srivastava

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi

Post by Abhinav srivastava
This is just a suggestion floated since the idea of next year Wikimania is discussed. Wikimedia Projects are about the art of giving and making space for other volunteers could just be one step.

Still not sure. I don’t remember very well but I probably will check again from the archives - Phoebe shared a long note earlier. If one Wikimedian from India does not apply for a scholarship it doesn’t mean that another Wikimedian from India would receive it. Not sure if it works that way.

A Global Village.

This itself is a different discussion. Many deserving Wikimedians that I personally know don’t apply and don’t take help when offered. There is a lot of scope to support Wikimedians who are not native English speakers or are not well versed.

Let’s just acknowledge the fact that there are way too many things. It’s important to discuss one thing at a time.

Post by Abhinav srivastava

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi

Post by Abhinav srivastava

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
A2K providing support to the community (Wikimedia India included) in general is a good practice. Maybe this is the right time for the community to come forward to share what they feel should be the right way (or ways) A2K could follow while supporting someone from Wikimedia India. The way they support the individual Wikimedians (from the scholarship waitlist) seems fairly simple and straightforward. Supporting WMIN lies in a grey area because one individual from 7 people gets selected. The consensus process involved in that process need to be more transparent.

Yes ! Definitely. Transparency is the key. I am glad that CIS-A2K stood firm in apologising. This is a very welcome step. However as pointed out in my previous mail, supporting a scholarship reciepient in waiting and a speaker are two different subjects. I am not sure if judgements such as 'grey areas' should be made but Yes it calls for a discussion on how things should work upon.
The consensus process is also something that calls for a discussion. From informing the team members to taking consensus, the community's will on this should be recorded with the Chapter. It is nice to hear that EC was copied in the request mail and aderance to transparecy is being made.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Subhashish

P.S : I may be slow in responses to future mails for the next 6 days. I am no travel.
Abhinav

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
I was expecting a reply from WMIN.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hello Bodhisattva,
Please allow me to respond to your confusions. Responses in line.
Again, as stated in my first mail on the thread, you are making too many value-judgments with un-friendly tone.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.

If you check the agenda section, WMIN President gave a talk on Conflict Resolution, this is followed my summary in the notes. When there are so many conflicts in Wikimedia communities across the globle, someone from India is invited to put this theories towards resolution. This is a welcome step. From Notes to his Summary Talk to how this will be carried forward for future course, every thing is documented.
He did not simply attend the meeting as a participant or representing Wikimedia India, he was a lead on the 3rd point of the Agenda which is Conflcit Resolution. Everything on it is documented.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

I am sure when Wikimedia India President is invited to give a talk on a defined Agenda, 'Conflict Resolution' and CIS-A2K is approving his request, he must on record have recieved an invitation.
It cannot be that without an invitation someone would travel so far. Also, please remember, unlike WMF staff or CIS-A2K, when someone from Wikimedia India has to travel, he has to forgoe his personal paid holidays. WMF staff or CIS-A2K travel abroad calling it 'On Work'.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?

This is about merit of the particular individual. This has nothing to do with the other Two EC.
Secondly, stating this again, he didn't travel simply to attend the meeting, he was given a set agenda to speak that is 'Conflict Resolution'. It was a subject of one's personal merit on which the organising committee invited him, this cannot be passed to other members of the same affiliate.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?

I do not think that if Wikimedia India President didn't go someone else would have been promoted. CIS-A2K should give a clarification on this.
Simply stating it once again, he didn't just travel to attend the conference, he was a speaker. This is entirely a different subject.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?

In response to statement 4.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Additional Comment : When someone India is selected or rather invited to give talk in an attempt to resolve the global problem. For me, this is a welcome step.
I am sorry but again I find you to harsh towards the India Chapter. This is my personal observation.
Abhinav

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----

Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
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[Dr. Manavpreet Kaur]

Hi everyone,
First of all, why is everyone else other than the one being questioned
addressing the mail?
As Abhinav said, If this is about voicing our opinions and concerns on a
public mailing list, I’d like to bring something to your notice and seek
your opinions on the same. In 2017, I and Stalinjeet went to Wikimedia
Conference, Berlin. There we had an informal SAARC MEETUP and later we were
all in the Strategy Discussion Team (as team no. 17), we discussed the
issues SAARC Communities are facing and the kind of practices which might
work well for the growth of our communities. Based on the discussions and
inputs from the members from different communities (SAARC as well as global
communities), we prepared a report and proposed the same for presentation
at Wikimania, 2017. The presentation was shortlisted, but as both of us
were not selected for the scholarship, we had to withdraw our submission as
we were not aware of any such funding assistance being offered by CIS-A2K.
This is not a complaint but a question that is this financial assistance
available only for some specific position holders or is open to all the
Wikimedians? and If this assistance is being offered to the Wikimedians,
why there was no formal notice about the same?

[Abhinav srivastava]

Hi Dr Manavpreet,

It is unfortunate that you couldn’t present. Yes ! Transparency and
effective messaging that one can approach affiliates for grants, in cases
has been lacking in our community. It is not about any office bearer, I am
sure CIS would have been neutral in making this judgement.

Also, let’s take your SAARC idea ahead.

Is this your submission ?
https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Past,_present_and_
Future_of_Wiki_Movement_in_Developing_countries:_A_SAARC_perspective


I am not sure because it says submission under review. For selected
submissions you can find another category. Maybe, I am wrong on this one.
The way they have designed and put out categories it is difficult to sort.
It could be that you didn’t receive the scholarship hence they didn’t put a
tick mark.

Dr Manavpreet Kaur, No special benefits for any office bearer. Your case
should have been considered.

Abhinav

Post by Dr. Manavpreet Kaur
Hi everyone,
First of all, why is everyone else other than the one being questioned
addressing the mail?
As Abhinav said, If this is about voicing our opinions and concerns on a
public mailing list, I’d like to bring something to your notice and seek
your opinions on the same. In 2017, I and Stalinjeet went to Wikimedia
Conference, Berlin. There we had an informal SAARC MEETUP and later we were
all in the Strategy Discussion Team (as team no. 17), we discussed the
issues SAARC Communities are facing and the kind of practices which might
work well for the growth of our communities. Based on the discussions and
inputs from the members from different communities (SAARC as well as global
communities), we prepared a report and proposed the same for presentation
at Wikimania, 2017. The presentation was shortlisted, but as both of us
were not selected for the scholarship, we had to withdraw our submission as
we were not aware of any such funding assistance being offered by CIS-A2K.
This is not a complaint but a question that is this financial assistance
available only for some specific position holders or is open to all the
Wikimedians? and If this assistance is being offered to the Wikimedians,
why there was no formal notice about the same?

[Dr. Manavpreet Kaur]

Hi Abhinav
Thanks for the clarification. It’s not in other list because we emailed
them about the scholarship status and requested to withdraw the submission.
Again, this wasn’t a complaint, just a concern about lack of information on
such financial assistance program. Anyhow, we had many other active
Wikimedians in the group who are working on the plans and taking the
movement ahead :)
Thanks
Manav

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Hi Dr Manavpreet,
It is unfortunate that you couldn’t present. Yes ! Transparency and
effective messaging that one can approach affiliates for grants, in cases
has been lacking in our community. It is not about any office bearer, I am
sure CIS would have been neutral in making this judgement.
Also, let’s take your SAARC idea ahead.
Is this your submission ?
https://wikimania2017.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Past,_present_and_Future_of_Wiki_Movement_in_Developing_countries:_A_SAARC_perspective
I am not sure because it says submission under review. For selected
submissions you can find another category. Maybe, I am wrong on this one.
The way they have designed and put out categories it is difficult to sort.
It could be that you didn’t receive the scholarship hence they didn’t put a
tick mark.
Dr Manavpreet Kaur, No special benefits for any office bearer. Your case
should have been considered.
Abhinav
On Sunday, August 5, 2018, Dr. Manavpreet Kaur <

Post by Dr. Manavpreet Kaur
Hi everyone,
First of all, why is everyone else other than the one being questioned
addressing the mail?
As Abhinav said, If this is about voicing our opinions and concerns on a
public mailing list, I’d like to bring something to your notice and seek
your opinions on the same. In 2017, I and Stalinjeet went to Wikimedia
Conference, Berlin. There we had an informal SAARC MEETUP and later we were
all in the Strategy Discussion Team (as team no. 17), we discussed the
issues SAARC Communities are facing and the kind of practices which might
work well for the growth of our communities. Based on the discussions and
inputs from the members from different communities (SAARC as well as global
communities), we prepared a report and proposed the same for presentation
at Wikimania, 2017. The presentation was shortlisted, but as both of us
were not selected for the scholarship, we had to withdraw our submission as
we were not aware of any such funding assistance being offered by CIS-A2K.
This is not a complaint but a question that is this financial assistance
available only for some specific position holders or is open to all the
Wikimedians? and If this assistance is being offered to the Wikimedians,
why there was no formal notice about the same?

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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Yohann Thomas]

Dear Bodhi

I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you
to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many
times.

Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
phone.. Since I'm traveling..

I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best
to clear all doubts.

1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to simply
attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can
find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which
carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a
speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates
intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would
be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as
mentioned on the Meta.

If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on
various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
were awarded appropriately.

CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.

In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
community members on decision making for such exercises.

2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
assistance.

*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018
& in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during
the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.

3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part,
to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.

4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should be
deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that
during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to
its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he
is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.

However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on
conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
the chapter board members

5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members and
its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are
unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time &
effort towards the community.

To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.

Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India

P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
binds us :)

--------

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there
were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there
with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not
at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal
meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit
or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I
can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India
is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers &
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a
delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially
independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with
regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in
community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why
was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India
who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Jayantilal Kothari]

Hello,
I edit on Telugu Wikipedia & Wikidata. I generally only read and not write
on mails.
Why so much negativity taking place?
Earlier it was about reports. When reports are there the issue is about
meeting was not important. Let us is good faith assume that note has been
taken and transparency in future will be maintained.

Thanks,
జయంఀిలటల్

Post by Yohann Thomas
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you
to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many
times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best
to clear all doubts.
1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes
which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was
a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup
as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on
various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
community members on decision making for such exercises.
2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference
2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was
during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part,
to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should be
deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that
during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to
its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he
is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on
conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
the chapter board members
5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members and
its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are
unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time &
effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
binds us :)
--------

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_
April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_
Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I
can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link
below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_
meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India
is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers &
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a
delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is
fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles
in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_
meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why
was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India
who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Yohann,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.

So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak
in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN
officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without
depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded
him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was
a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about
what WMIN did.

Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't
understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the
conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about
Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the
next 2 people in the queue.

Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who
sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.

By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I
said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc.
Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is
a difference between random and informal.

Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no
attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full
funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania
scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets
official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now,
from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will
receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not
distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a
prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the
volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to
participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could
have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be
informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN
and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything
open and transparent, unlike this time.


Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you
to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many
times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best
to clear all doubts.
1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes
which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was
a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup
as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on
various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
community members on decision making for such exercises.
2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference
2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was
during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part,
to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should be
deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that
during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to
its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he
is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on
conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
the chapter board members
5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members and
its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are
unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time &
effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
binds us :)
--------

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then
he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
the documentation of his invitation?
[1]
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I
can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link
below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India
is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers &
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a
delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is
fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles
in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why
was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India
who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Bodhisattwa Mandal]

Hi Yohann,

As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation
letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to
attend the meeting.

Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak
in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN
officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without
depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded
him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was
a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about
what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't
understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the
conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about
Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the
next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who
sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I
said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc.
Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is
a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no
attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full
funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania
scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets
official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now,
from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will
receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not
distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a
prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the
volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to
participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could
have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be
informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN
and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything
open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you
to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many
times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my
best to clear all doubts.
1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes
which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was
a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup
as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on
various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
community members on decision making for such exercises.
2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference
2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was
during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part,
to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should
be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that
during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to
its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he
is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on
conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
the chapter board members
5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members
and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members
are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their
time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
binds us :)
--------
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a
single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to
make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal
meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now,
if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the
meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting.
Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you
provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1]
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul
is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I
can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link
below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia
India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion
on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid
volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India,
there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is
fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles
in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why
was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India
who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Asaf Bartov]

Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh
himself.

Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention, and
it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the concerns --
ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't happen around
your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking perspective of what
might change to prevent such concerns in the future.

Thank you.

A.

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation
letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to
attend the meeting.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to
speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN
officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without
depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded
him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was
a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about
what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't
understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the
conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about
Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the
next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who
sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I
said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc.
Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is
a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no
attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full
funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania
scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets
official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now,
from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will
receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not
distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a
prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the
volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to
participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could
have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be
informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN
and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything
open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request
you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do
many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my
best to clear all doubts.
1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes
which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was
a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup
as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on
various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
community members on decision making for such exercises.
2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference
2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was
during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part,
to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should
be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that
during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to
its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he
is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on
conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
the chapter board members
5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members
and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members
are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their
time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
binds us :)
--------
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a
single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to
make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal
meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now,
if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the
meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting.
Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you
provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_
April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_
Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend
the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because
Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it
personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I
can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link
below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_
meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that
many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia
India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion
on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid
volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India,
there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is
fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles
in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_
meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want
to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in
relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter
before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on
different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory
hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter
is going through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in
Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question
is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from
India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Asaf Bartov]

Dear Rahul,

It's been 10 days since I've explicitly invited you to respond yourself and
to take responsibility for this -- whether a mistake or a
misunderstanding. It would be good if you could make time to do so. If
you are unable to put in the time, please at least drop a line
acknowledging you intend to, and suggest a date by which you'd be able to
respond.

It seems to me people have been trying to assume good faith despite
concerns about the way this was handled, but this assumption of good faith
should not be abused indefinitely. WMIN's EC and its president should be
accountable to the membership and the broader communities it exists to
support. You agreed with this statement when I made it in our meeting in
Mumbai last year. Do please show you meant it.

Thank you,

A.

Post by Asaf Bartov
Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh
himself.
Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention, and
it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the concerns --
ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't happen around
your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking perspective of what
might change to prevent such concerns in the future.
Thank you.
A.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation
letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to
attend the meeting.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to
speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN
officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without
depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded
him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was
a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about
what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't
understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the
conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about
Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the
next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know,
who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I
said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc.
Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is
a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no
attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full
funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania
scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets
official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now,
from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will
receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not
distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a
prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the
volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to
participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could
have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be
informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN
and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything
open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request
you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do
many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my
best to clear all doubts.
1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes
which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was
a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup
as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India
2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us
deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community
members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached
CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
community members on decision making for such exercises.
2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference
2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was
during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part,
to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should
be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that
during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to
its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he
is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on
conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
the chapter board members
5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members
and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members
are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their
time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
binds us :)
--------
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a
single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to
make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal
meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now,
if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the
meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting.
Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you
provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1]
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same.
Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for
volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation
money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and
supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can
you please explain that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend
the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because
Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also,
I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take
it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want,
I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link
below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that
many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia
India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion
on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid
volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India,
there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is
fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different
roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional
roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers
around the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want
to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in
relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter
before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on
different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory
hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter
is going through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in
Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question
is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from
India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
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--
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org

[Karthik Nadar]

Dear WMIN EC/Rahul,

I think the community is still waiting for an answer.

My further points:

1. I appreciate Abhinav for defending the Chapter. Having been in the seat,
I would personally incline to defend too, however it really has to make
sense.

2. CIS has done it's role of helping WMIN as always. Perhaps request of
support upto this scale should be available to public even before it is
accepted. I think CIS should also have analysed that there were two members
from WMIN EC were attending Wikimania.

Would not like to deviate more. In complete sync with Asaf. WMIN is
answerable to the community and to its members. No doubt here and it's been
just too long, way too long.

Dear WMIN, the only way to gain community confidence is to engage with
them. Really surprised with activities like Wiki Loves Monuments which was
always a Chapter supported activity is not supported by Chapter this year
or correct me if I'm wrong.



Regards,
Karthik Nadar
Ignore types, sent using my OnePlus

Post by Asaf Bartov
Dear Rahul,
It's been 10 days since I've explicitly invited you to respond yourself
and to take responsibility for this -- whether a mistake or a
misunderstanding. It would be good if you could make time to do so. If
you are unable to put in the time, please at least drop a line
acknowledging you intend to, and suggest a date by which you'd be able to
respond.
It seems to me people have been trying to assume good faith despite
concerns about the way this was handled, but this assumption of good faith
should not be abused indefinitely. WMIN's EC and its president should be
accountable to the membership and the broader communities it exists to
support. You agreed with this statement when I made it in our meeting in
Mumbai last year. Do please show you meant it.
Thank you,
A.

Post by Asaf Bartov
Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh
himself.
Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention,
and it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the
concerns -- ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't
happen around your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking
perspective of what might change to prevent such concerns in the future.
Thank you.
A.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the
invitation letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN
president to attend the meeting.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to
speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN
officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without
depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded
him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was
a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about
what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't
understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the
conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about
Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the
next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know,
who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting,
I said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc.
Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is
a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no
attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full
funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania
scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets
official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now,
from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will
receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not
distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a
prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the
volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to
participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could
have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be
informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN
and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything
open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request
you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do
many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my
best to clear all doubts.
1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes
which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was
a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup
as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India
2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us
deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community
members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached
CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
community members on decision making for such exercises.
2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia
Conference 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy
discussion. It was during the movement strategy discussion that he received
the invitation.
3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part,
to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members
should be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put
emphasis that during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two
sponsorship to its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer
gets, when he is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on
conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
the chapter board members
5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members
and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members
are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their
time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
binds us :)
--------
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a
single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to
make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to
the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal
meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now,
if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the
meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting.
Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you
provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1]
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same.
Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for
volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation
money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and
supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can
you please explain that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend
the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because
Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also,
I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take
it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want,
I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link
below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that
many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia
India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion
on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid
volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India,
there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is
fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different
roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional
roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers
around the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want
to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in
relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter
before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on
different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory
hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter
is going through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in
Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question
is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from
India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

--
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org

--
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

[Sudhanwa Jogalekar]

Hi,

In spite of so many mails, if he(Rahul) is not responding, It is obvious
that he is not on this mailing list.

I found Bodhisattwa's initial query was in the right spirit but later on
tones got changed on the thread and it has almost become
scrutiny/interrogation !!
I completely understand/respect/agree that we are all volunteers and we do
have concerns about the activities happening around. But in this case,
things are probably not taken "In good faith" which is a base of a
Wikipedian.
Any volunteer is always free to apply/ask for scholarship for any reason
towards the cause of Wikipedia and no one can deny that freedom. In this
case, it happens to be a office bearer of the organisation. (I am not
taking any names here and making it generic) If a volunteer feels that the
reason for asking for scholarship is valid, he/she should ask for it.

It is the duty of the person/organisation sanctioning such
scholarships/funding to judge if the justification for the same is valid or
not. If the justification is not right, sponsorship can be easily rejected.
Nothing wrong in it. In this case, CIS-A2K has already replied to the
query. Somehow, people are still asking the sponsored volunteer for
justification and not the sponsoring authorities. It should be the other
way round as the sponsors have the authority to accept or reject any
proposal. I believe, in the past WMF has also spend money on similar
sponsorships without even informing the community. Lot of money has been
spent in various projects without much visibility and actual numbers in
achieving the target. But then very few people are raising alerts about it.

So, if at all people want to raise their concern, find the right target to
ask questions/get answers and not just another volunteer !!
Hope people will take up things in the right spirit.

Disclaimer: I have not met/talked to anyone from WMIN/WMF after this thread
has started. Just had a 1-2 minute casual discussion with Tito about the
mail thread itself.

Regards
-Sudhanwa

Post by Karthik Nadar
Dear WMIN EC/Rahul,
I think the community is still waiting for an answer.
1. I appreciate Abhinav for defending the Chapter. Having been in the
seat, I would personally incline to defend too, however it really has to
make sense.
2. CIS has done it's role of helping WMIN as always. Perhaps request of
support upto this scale should be available to public even before it is
accepted. I think CIS should also have analysed that there were two members
from WMIN EC were attending Wikimania.
Would not like to deviate more. In complete sync with Asaf. WMIN is
answerable to the community and to its members. No doubt here and it's been
just too long, way too long.
Dear WMIN, the only way to gain community confidence is to engage with
them. Really surprised with activities like Wiki Loves Monuments which was
always a Chapter supported activity is not supported by Chapter this year
or correct me if I'm wrong.
Regards,
Karthik Nadar
Ignore types, sent using my OnePlus

Post by Asaf Bartov
Dear Rahul,
It's been 10 days since I've explicitly invited you to respond yourself
and to take responsibility for this -- whether a mistake or a
misunderstanding. It would be good if you could make time to do so. If
you are unable to put in the time, please at least drop a line
acknowledging you intend to, and suggest a date by which you'd be able to
respond.
It seems to me people have been trying to assume good faith despite
concerns about the way this was handled, but this assumption of good faith
should not be abused indefinitely. WMIN's EC and its president should be
accountable to the membership and the broader communities it exists to
support. You agreed with this statement when I made it in our meeting in
Mumbai last year. Do please show you meant it.
Thank you,
A.

Post by Asaf Bartov
Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh
himself.
Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention,
and it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the
concerns -- ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't
happen around your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking
perspective of what might change to prevent such concerns in the future.
Thank you.
A.
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 7:06 AM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the
invitation letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN
president to attend the meeting.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, 14:58 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to
speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN
officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without
depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded
him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was
a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about
what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't
understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the
conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about
Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the
next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know,
who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting,
I said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc.
Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is
a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no
attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full
funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania
scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets
official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now,
from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will
receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not
distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a
prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the
volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to
participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could
have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be
informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN
and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything
open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request
you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do
many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my
best to clear all doubts.
1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes
which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was
a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup
as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India
2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us
deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community
members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached
CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
community members on decision making for such exercises.
2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation
to attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia
Conference 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy
discussion. It was during the movement strategy discussion that he received
the invitation.
3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part,
to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members
should be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put
emphasis that during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two
sponsorship to its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer
gets, when he is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on
conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
the chapter board members
5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board
members and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board
members are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give
their time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
binds us :)
--------
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a
single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to
make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related
to the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal
meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now,
if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the
meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting.
Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you
provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1]
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went
there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation
is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same.
Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for
volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation
money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and
supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can
you please explain that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend
the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because
Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours.
Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't
take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you
want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your
questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link
below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund
its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that
many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna
Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the
meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to
spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a
meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider
these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia
India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion
on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid
volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India,
there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is
fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different
roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional
roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers
around the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to
fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really
want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in
relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter
before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on
different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory
hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter
is going through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in
Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question
is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from
India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes.
The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
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--
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share
in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org

--
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
https://donate.wikimedia.org
_______________________________________________
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[Subhashish Panigrahi]

Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own country.

Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

S

Hi,
In spite of so many mails, if he(Rahul) is not responding, It is obvious that he is not on this mailing list.
I found Bodhisattwa's initial query was in the right spirit but later on tones got changed on the thread and it has almost become scrutiny/interrogation !!
I completely understand/respect/agree that we are all volunteers and we do have concerns about the activities happening around. But in this case, things are probably not taken "In good faith" which is a base of a Wikipedian.
Any volunteer is always free to apply/ask for scholarship for any reason towards the cause of Wikipedia and no one can deny that freedom. In this case, it happens to be a office bearer of the organisation. (I am not taking any names here and making it generic) If a volunteer feels that the reason for asking for scholarship is valid, he/she should ask for it.
It is the duty of the person/organisation sanctioning such scholarships/funding to judge if the justification for the same is valid or not. If the justification is not right, sponsorship can be easily rejected. Nothing wrong in it. In this case, CIS-A2K has already replied to the query. Somehow, people are still asking the sponsored volunteer for justification and not the sponsoring authorities. It should be the other way round as the sponsors have the authority to accept or reject any proposal. I believe, in the past WMF has also spend money on similar sponsorships without even informing the community. Lot of money has been spent in various projects without much visibility and actual numbers in achieving the target. But then very few people are raising alerts about it.
So, if at all people want to raise their concern, find the right target to ask questions/get answers and not just another volunteer !!
Hope people will take up things in the right spirit.
Disclaimer: I have not met/talked to anyone from WMIN/WMF after this thread has started. Just had a 1-2 minute casual discussion with Tito about the mail thread itself.
Regards
-Sudhanwa

Post by Karthik Nadar
Dear WMIN EC/Rahul,
I think the community is still waiting for an answer.
1. I appreciate Abhinav for defending the Chapter. Having been in the seat, I would personally incline to defend too, however it really has to make sense.
2. CIS has done it's role of helping WMIN as always. Perhaps request of support upto this scale should be available to public even before it is accepted. I think CIS should also have analysed that there were two members from WMIN EC were attending Wikimania.
Would not like to deviate more. In complete sync with Asaf. WMIN is answerable to the community and to its members. No doubt here and it's been just too long, way too long.
Dear WMIN, the only way to gain community confidence is to engage with them. Really surprised with activities like Wiki Loves Monuments which was always a Chapter supported activity is not supported by Chapter this year or correct me if I'm wrong.
Regards,
Karthik Nadar
Ignore types, sent using my OnePlus

Post by Asaf Bartov
Dear Rahul,
It's been 10 days since I've explicitly invited you to respond yourself and to take responsibility for this -- whether a mistake or a misunderstanding. It would be good if you could make time to do so. If you are unable to put in the time, please at least drop a line acknowledging you intend to, and suggest a date by which you'd be able to respond.
It seems to me people have been trying to assume good faith despite concerns about the way this was handled, but this assumption of good faith should not be abused indefinitely. WMIN's EC and its president should be accountable to the membership and the broader communities it exists to support. You agreed with this statement when I made it in our meeting in Mumbai last year. Do please show you meant it.
Thank you,
A.

Perhaps also helpful would be to hear some response from Mr. Deshmukh himself.
Rahul, I think the concerns raised here at least merit your attention, and it's been two weeks. I encourage you to show up and discuss the concerns -- ideally, with a forthright description of what did and didn't happen around your travel to Wikimania, and with a forward-looking perspective of what might change to prevent such concerns in the future.
Thank you.
A.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
As I and Satdeep requested, it would be great if you share the invitation letter with all of us, so that we can know who invited WMIN president to attend the meeting.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc. Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now, from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best to clear all doubts.
1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016, where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its community members on decision making for such exercises.
2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel assistance.
I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part, to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should be deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing the chapter board members
5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members and its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time & effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what binds us :)
--------

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups, there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup, then he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup. Can you please provide some documentation, where it is written that scholarship would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true, everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal meetups in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So, sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend the conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because Rahul is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take it personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended the meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General Secretary of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present in that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a huge amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting, where his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two members unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion on any topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid volunteers & have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there was a delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties towards the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as user groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't financially independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers around the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in relation to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter before his term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----

Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question is why was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from India who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have attended the meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
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Wikimedia Foundation
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--
Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia Foundation
Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality!
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[Sudhanwa Jogalekar]

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so he
must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case
scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter
board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because
he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.

Regards
-Sudhanwa

[Rahul Deshmukh]

*Dear all,*

*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed
away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had
been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *

*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread for
which I am extremely sorry.*

*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *

*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *

*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would
request community members to personally email me.*

*Thanks*

*Rahul Deshmukh*

Post by Sudhanwa Jogalekar

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so
he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case
scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter
board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back because
he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards
-Sudhanwa
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[Satdeep Gill]

Hi Rahul,

It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult
it must have been for you and rest of your family.

Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
one email on this thread itself.

Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one
email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).

I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
in our processes.

Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some
time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take
your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.

Best
Satdeep

Post by Rahul Deshmukh
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed
away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had
been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread
for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would
request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so
he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case
scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter
board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards
-Sudhanwa
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[Abhinav srivastava]

Comrade Satdeep,

Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh and
WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already been
shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report has
been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name public. I
am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be called.

You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
you on a personal mail.

Why the difference?

Abhinav

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult
it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one
email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out some
time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So, take
your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best
Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <

Post by Rahul Deshmukh
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother passed
away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38 and had
been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread
for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would
request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai so
he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst case
scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the chapter
board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards
-Sudhanwa
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[Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka]

<Just a random observation>

Dear Abhinav,

I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in this
thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in Satdeep's
email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is indeed true
that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread *himself*. I
strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns himself in this
thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this mail and hope
you don't too. It's not necessary.

Thanks
Srikar

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh
and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already
been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report
has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name
public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be
called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how difficult
it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one
email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out
some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So,
take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best
Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <

Post by Rahul Deshmukh
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother
passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38
and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread
for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would
request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai
so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst
case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the
chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards
-Sudhanwa
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[Abhinav srivastava]

It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity. Rest,
report has already been shared.

Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me.
This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his
friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC
members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the
report but we don't do sensationalism.


http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa

Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.

I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping the
chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.

Abhinav


On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <

Post by Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
*himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks
Srikar

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh
and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already
been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report
has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name
public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be
called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one
email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out
some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So,
take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best
Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <

Post by Rahul Deshmukh
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother
passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38
and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the thread
for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would
request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai
so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst
case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the
chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards
-Sudhanwa
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[Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka]

Dear Abhinav,

It is quite sad that I'm having this conversation with a wikimedian of your
stature. Satdeep is not the only one waiting for Rahul's responses. Please
use your diversionary tactics elsewhere. If you truly believe Satdeep's
credentials are dubious, use the appropriate forum to get it solved. This
mail thread is *exclusively *about this discrepancy. Isn't it surprising
that whenever a person (be it Bodhi, Satdeep) raises a genuine question
about this issue, you suddenly start talking about their history and
actions. You might think that it's an intelligent movie aimed at shutting
them down, but you are only enhancing the suspicions of the community.

I really don't care if you respect my work or not. This thread neither
deals with my contribs nor Satdeep's credentials. This is clearly getting
out of hand Abhinav. You are only making a fool out of yourself by
repeatedly threatening everyone aggressively. I repeat, bringing up a
volunteer's history or actions in this thread is not acceptable. I sense
you will continue to do so despite so many people already advising you to
do otherwise, I leave the decision to you.

Thanks,
Srikar

Post by Abhinav srivastava
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me.
This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his
friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC
members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the
report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <

Post by Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
*himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks
Srikar

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh
and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already
been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report
has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name
public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be
called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one
email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out
some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So,
take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best
Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <

Post by Rahul Deshmukh
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother
passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38
and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the
thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would
request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai
so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst
case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the
chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards
-Sudhanwa
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[Abhinav srivastava]

Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can
throw some light.

Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the
concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.

Abhinav

Post by Abhinav srivastava
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me.
This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his
friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC
members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the
report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_
Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <

Post by Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
*himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks
Srikar

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh
and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already
been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report
has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name
public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be
called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in one
email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out
some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So,
take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best
Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <

Post by Rahul Deshmukh
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother
passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38
and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the
thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would
request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first emai
so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In worst
case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from the
chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that the
discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards
-Sudhanwa
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[Subhashish Panigrahi]

As Rahul is going through a huge personal crisis, it is humane to give him
time to recover. Rahul, sorry for your loss and deepest condolences to the
close ones.

That said, it is important to discuss a few things publicly that would help
clear some air and strengthen the transparency. Not everything needs to be
discussed privately though some should be. This discussion can be parked
for sometime until Rahul recovers from grief. But the impulsive reaction to
Satdeep's email is uncalled for. No need to discuss what his role is in
different organizations/groups that he works for in whatsoever capacity.
Such discussions could not just dilute the real matter of this thread but
also potentially create bad breath between members of the community. Rahul
is a president of a national-level chapter that represents the Indian
Wikimedia community. So, it is important that he responds in that capacity
when he is ready. There is nothing personal here (though many discussions
have been dragged that way).

Abhinav, as a fellow Wikipedian and a friend, my humble request to you
would be to treat other members in the list respectfully (and the same
request to all others). You are a Wikipedian and a former office bearer so
none knows about this better than you.

Subhashish

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can
throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the
concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav

Post by Abhinav srivastava
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me.
This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his
friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC
members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the
report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_
Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <

Post by Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
*himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks
Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava <

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh
and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already
been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report
has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name
public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be
called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in
one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out
some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So,
take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best
Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <

Post by Rahul Deshmukh
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother
passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38
and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the
thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would
request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first
emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In
worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from
the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that
the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards
-Sudhanwa
_______________________________________________
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[Abhinav srivastava]

Dear All,

I have spoken to Satdeep and listened to his concerns. Regret for any
inconveniences stemmed at my end last night. Thank you Srikar and
Subhashish for writing.

Abhinav

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
As Rahul is going through a huge personal crisis, it is humane to give him
time to recover. Rahul, sorry for your loss and deepest condolences to the
close ones.
That said, it is important to discuss a few things publicly that would
help clear some air and strengthen the transparency. Not everything needs
to be discussed privately though some should be. This discussion can be
parked for sometime until Rahul recovers from grief. But the impulsive
reaction to Satdeep's email is uncalled for. No need to discuss what his
role is in different organizations/groups that he works for in whatsoever
capacity. Such discussions could not just dilute the real matter of this
thread but also potentially create bad breath between members of the
community. Rahul is a president of a national-level chapter that represents
the Indian Wikimedia community. So, it is important that he responds in
that capacity when he is ready. There is nothing personal here (though many
discussions have been dragged that way).
Abhinav, as a fellow Wikipedian and a friend, my humble request to you
would be to treat other members in the list respectfully (and the same
request to all others). You are a Wikipedian and a former office bearer so
none knows about this better than you.
Subhashish

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can
throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the
concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav

Post by Abhinav srivastava
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns
me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and
his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when
EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished
the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <

Post by Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
*himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks
Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava <

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr
Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has
already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta
where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an
individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international
volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in
one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out
some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So,
take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best
Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <

Post by Rahul Deshmukh
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother
passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38
and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the
thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would
request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first
emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In
worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from
the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that
the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards
-Sudhanwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

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[Asaf Bartov]

Wikimedia India is an Indian organization, and the Wikimedia Foundation
does not have a say in its internal governance. It does, of course, have
great *influence*, insofar as it is historically its biggest funder, and in
that it can revoke its recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate. I state this
just for clarity, so that no one is confused about WMF's role in this
discussion. This is a matter for Wikimedia India and the communities in
India which it exists to serve, and not a WMF matter.

However, since you ask me directly, Abhinav, yes, I think this public
inquiry (which was brought up respectfully and patiently, and only became
shrill because of *your* ad hominem responses) is perfectly acceptable, and
an office bearer's accountability is a duty that cannot be argued away by
invoking "privacy". Rahul's travel was not private, but made *as* an office
bearer, and there can be no privacy concern about it.

I agree with Srikar: your repeated tactic of attempting to discredit the
people who raised concerns is inappropriate, aggressive, uncollegial,
unhelpful, and for those not convinced of your good faith, also probably
suggesting an attempt to cover something up or change the subject by any
means necessary.

Now, *I myself* trust there is no reason to cover anything up. As I already
said earlier in this thread, if a mistake was made, it can be openly
admitted; in my experience Wikimedians are exceptionally open and forgiving
when faced with honest admission of error or bad judgment. And if no
mistake was made, then clarifications can be offered and understanding and
trust regained.

Rahul has now explained the circumstances of his non-responsiveness, and
people have expressed understanding and patience, while declining his
suggestion that this should be discussed privately. Rahul now can take the
time he needs to explain his actions to the community, which is the
constituency he is to serve.

Cheers,

A.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can
throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the
concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav

Post by Abhinav srivastava
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns me.
This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and his
friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when EC
members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished the
report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <

Post by Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
*himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks
Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava <

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr Deshmukh
and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has already
been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta where report
has been shared and find out, if you really want an individual's name
public. I am not convinced why an international volunteers name need to be
called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in
one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out
some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So,
take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best
Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <

Post by Rahul Deshmukh
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother
passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38
and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the
thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would
request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first
emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In
worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from
the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that
the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards
-Sudhanwa
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[Abhinav srivastava]

Thank You Asaf Bartov for writing back!

Post by Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia India is an Indian organization, and the Wikimedia Foundation
does not have a say in its internal governance. It does, of course, have
great *influence*, insofar as it is historically its biggest funder, and in
that it can revoke its recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate. I state this
just for clarity, so that no one is confused about WMF's role in this
discussion. This is a matter for Wikimedia India and the communities in
India which it exists to serve, and not a WMF matter.
However, since you ask me directly, Abhinav, yes, I think this public
inquiry (which was brought up respectfully and patiently, and only became
shrill because of *your* ad hominem responses) is perfectly acceptable, and
an office bearer's accountability is a duty that cannot be argued away by
invoking "privacy". Rahul's travel was not private, but made *as* an office
bearer, and there can be no privacy concern about it.
I agree with Srikar: your repeated tactic of attempting to discredit the
people who raised concerns is inappropriate, aggressive, uncollegial,
unhelpful, and for those not convinced of your good faith, also probably
suggesting an attempt to cover something up or change the subject by any
means necessary.
Now, *I myself* trust there is no reason to cover anything up. As I
already said earlier in this thread, if a mistake was made, it can be
openly admitted; in my experience Wikimedians are exceptionally open and
forgiving when faced with honest admission of error or bad judgment. And if
no mistake was made, then clarifications can be offered and understanding
and trust regained.
Rahul has now explained the circumstances of his non-responsiveness, and
people have expressed understanding and patience, while declining his
suggestion that this should be discussed privately. Rahul now can take the
time he needs to explain his actions to the community, which is the
constituency he is to serve.
Cheers,
A.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can
throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the
concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav

Post by Abhinav srivastava
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns
me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and
his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when
EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished
the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <

Post by Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
*himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks
Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava <

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr
Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has
already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta
where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an
individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international
volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in
one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking out
some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet. So,
take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best
Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <

Post by Rahul Deshmukh
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother
passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38
and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the
thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I would
request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first
emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In
worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from
the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that
the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards
-Sudhanwa
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[Abhinav srivastava]

Good Evening!

Firstly, no attempts to deviate or dismantle the principal problem or
replying with impulse. Yes, I am a public-spirited community member and
this is truer for India Chapter. The reason I asked Asaf to revert on
privacy because many issues like contracts are not disclosed to the general
community and instead of we debating endlessly it is better to speak advice
from an outside observer and speed up the process.

Post-Asaf’s response, I inquired with the Affiliates committee myself. *This
is not to say Mr. Deshmukh should not reply, he indeed should to any
concerns whatever community seeks to know*. Again, my public spirit asked
me to do it, nothing else at all. I am not trying to bring deviations.

Mr. Frans Grijzenhout, Chair, The Netherland Chapter informs me that he
invited Mr. Deshmukh for the meetup. He informed me that conflict
management is a serious issue in the context such as Wikimedia France 2017.
All information is already present on Wikimedia Meta. Here's the page with
links to the minutes of the meetings, the discussion papers, and some
statements in issues that concerns the global affiliate.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Affiliate_Chairpersons_meetings.
Yohann has already shared this with the community on this thread before.

I did not realize that it was the same person who wrote on the Wikimania
mailing list when this issue was raised. He had written,

“Hi Bodhisattewa, Please take into consideration that Rahul did more than

speaking for a few minutes during the chairs' meeting in Cape Town.

- He prepared a discussion note for this meeting about a sensitive topic.

- Rahul and me had several discussions (per skype and in person) in the

weeks preceding the actual meeting.

- Rahul presented his ideas during the meeting and was actively engaged in

the discussion.

- And in the end he got some home work as well: enhancing his note with the

outcomes of the discussion.

The contribution of Rahul was much appreciated.

Regards, Frans

“

Now one more concern that I find as being raised by a few community members
when two EC members were present what was the need to send Mr. Deshmukh
himself. On Wednesday, 8th August 2018 at 12:42 Indian Standard Time,
Yohann had replied on behalf of the Chapter, “ The chapter has full faith
and belief in all its board members in both, individual and collective
levels. This invitation was to the particular individual based on his
expertise in the chapter and in the movement. The chapter has never
considered any of its board members unfit to represent it*.**”*

I further inquired about this issue with the Affiliates Committee. While
Mr. Deshmukh was invited to speak on the Conflict Management the rules say,
“The session is for *chairs* of chapters and thematic organizations *only*.
You can delegate another member of your board if you cannot make it yourself
”

So yes, the rules do say that some other board member can be delegated this
responsibility. To my understanding, the sentiments of the community were
not recorded here. This blunder of not informing the community has perhaps
turned in Mahatma Gandhi’s word, ‘*A Himalayan Blunder’*. While Yohann on
behalf of Chapter has written that they make a note and would engage more
effectively with the community in future and also assurance by CIS-A2K but
we shouldn’t stop here. Discussions should be made on how to bring this
transparency much more effectively. At last, if the community believes and
required that Chapter should write a 7 letter word, ‘apology’ they
shouldn’t be hesitant and write it straightaway.



Now not to deviate the topic but I also wanted to know from CIS-A2K, the
sponsor myself. Which ledger were the funds allocated, whether from
affiliates travel ledger or volunteers travel? Bodhisattwa had asked why
the subsequent travel scholarship was not allocated to those in waiting
subsequently. The Affiliates body could not provide clarity on this. 2016
Wiki Conference India editors had asked for the scholarship from CIS-A2K
and they were awarded not keeping the waiting list criteria, also. I wish
to propose a simple step suggestion if the waiting list members decline to
attend Wikimania, cases for those invited to speak for a session (like Dr
Manavpreet in 2017) can be provided the scholarship. Of course! on each
such case merit of the visit needs to be quantified beforehand. Similarly,
for steward meetings amongst others. I can float a white paper on how to
quantify such metrics (not on this thread, I recognize it will deviate from
the main issue) and community can share more inputs.

Anyways, I do not wish to write more and I will be selective and careful in
responding as per some of the suggestions received on this thread so far.
Since I had inquired myself so I thought of sharing. Please pardon if my
messages have seemed to be hiding the principal problem and making others
suspicious. Those were not my intentions and that is why I inquired myself.

Disclaimer: I have not spoken to any Wikimedia India office-bearers before
approaching the Affiliates Committee or writing this mail.



Abhinav

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Thank You Asaf Bartov for writing back!

Post by Asaf Bartov
Wikimedia India is an Indian organization, and the Wikimedia Foundation
does not have a say in its internal governance. It does, of course, have
great *influence*, insofar as it is historically its biggest funder, and in
that it can revoke its recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate. I state this
just for clarity, so that no one is confused about WMF's role in this
discussion. This is a matter for Wikimedia India and the communities in
India which it exists to serve, and not a WMF matter.
However, since you ask me directly, Abhinav, yes, I think this public
inquiry (which was brought up respectfully and patiently, and only became
shrill because of *your* ad hominem responses) is perfectly acceptable, and
an office bearer's accountability is a duty that cannot be argued away by
invoking "privacy". Rahul's travel was not private, but made *as* an office
bearer, and there can be no privacy concern about it.
I agree with Srikar: your repeated tactic of attempting to discredit the
people who raised concerns is inappropriate, aggressive, uncollegial,
unhelpful, and for those not convinced of your good faith, also probably
suggesting an attempt to cover something up or change the subject by any
means necessary.
Now, *I myself* trust there is no reason to cover anything up. As I
already said earlier in this thread, if a mistake was made, it can be
openly admitted; in my experience Wikimedians are exceptionally open and
forgiving when faced with honest admission of error or bad judgment. And if
no mistake was made, then clarifications can be offered and understanding
and trust regained.
Rahul has now explained the circumstances of his non-responsiveness, and
people have expressed understanding and patience, while declining his
suggestion that this should be discussed privately. Rahul now can take the
time he needs to explain his actions to the community, which is the
constituency he is to serve.
Cheers,
A.

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Perhaps it would be advisable to hear from Mr Asaf Bartov and if we can
throw some light.
Whether best practices call for taking name publicly or should the
concerned persons approach CIS and WMIN and get the details.
Abhinav
On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Abhinav srivastava <

Post by Abhinav srivastava
It is necessary my friend. Name game business is no sign of maturity.
Rest, report has already been shared.
Affcom member who is selected and not elected showing biases concerns
me. This chapter only made him a featured wikimedians and assisted him and
his friends. His friend has also acknowledged the help on this thread when
EC members paid from their pocket to support him. He still hasn't finished
the report but we don't do sensationalism.
http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Equipment_Lending_and_Community_Support/Report/2016/Bodhisattwa
Post Script : Just a general though based on today morning newspapers.
India has become a hub of online trolling where one asks the other to
respond. I am happy they are restricted to social media and not us here.
I personally respect you for your work on en Wikipedia and also helping
the chapter. I will not reply if you feel so. Suggestion taken.
Abhinav
On Thu 13 Sep, 2018, 10:34 PM Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka, <

Post by Srikar Kashyap Pulipaka
<Just a random observation>
Dear Abhinav,
I feel you have been overly enthusiastic in responding to the mails in
this thread. I clearly don't find *anything* personal and offensive in
Satdeep's email. That was a totally uncalled for attack on him. It is
indeed true that Rahul must answer a few questions raised in this thread
*himself*. I strongly suggest that we let Rahul address all the concerns
himself in this thread once and for all. I don't expect your reply to this
mail and hope you don't too. It's not necessary.
Thanks
Srikar
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:19 PM Abhinav srivastava <

Post by Abhinav srivastava
Comrade Satdeep,
Respect one's personal privacy. You can approach CIS-A2K or Mr
Deshmukh and WMIN and know who invited. Rest, report and documentation has
already been shared. You can also write on the discussion page on Meta
where report has been shared and find out, if you really want an
individual's name public. I am not convinced why an international
volunteers name need to be called.
You are not even an elected member at Affcom, if my memory serves me
correctly. You did not hold any work experience which was written as
mandatory for the office you are holding. I am not sure if you shared any
report for the Hindi contractual job. You want to discuss everything about
you on a personal mail.
Why the difference?
Abhinav

Post by Satdeep Gill
Hi Rahul,
It's very sad to hear about your loss. I totally understand how
difficult it must have been for you and rest of your family.
Thanks a lot responding to this thread. I understand your request to
personally email you but there are many unanswered questions such as
information about the inviting organization, reporting etc. in this thread
and it would be better if you can answer all the questions one by one in
one email on this thread itself.
Let me know if you need any help in collecting all the questions in
one email. I am available to help you. Otherwise, just go through the whole
thread (which will provide you with enough context as well).
I agree with you that this discussion will help WMIN and the larger
wikimedia community as well. It will also help us ensure more transparency
in our processes.
Looking forward to hear from you! Thank you once again for taking
out some time to reply here. I believe you must not be fully available yet.
So, take your time and respond whenever you can in the coming weeks.
Best
Satdeep
On Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 7:09 PM Rahul Deshmukh <

Post by Rahul Deshmukh
*Dear all,*
*I am extremely sorry to inform you that my younger cousin brother
passed away last Friday from severe medical complications. He was just 38
and had been hospitalised for several weeks in critical stage. *
*Being engrossed in the family issue I was not able to reply the
thread for which I am extremely sorry.*
*Regarding the issue as discussed in the thread I had requested for
sponsorship with all needful information from external funding agency CIS,
and CIS agreed to it. Wikimedia India did not spend any fund from its
account. *
*However this discussion will be helpful for Wikimedia India while
disseminating WMIN’s funds in future. *
*In case someone wants any other information in this regard I
would request community members to personally email me.*
*Thanks*
*Rahul Deshmukh*
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:06 PM, Sudhanwa Jogalekar <

On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 3:47 PM Subhashish Panigrahi <

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Just a technical clarification - Asaf copied Rahul in his first
emai so he must have received the email. I have copied Rahul again. In
worst case scenario (if he is not there in the mailing list), others from
the chapter board would have informed him. It’s very hard to believe that
the discussion has gone so far without Rahul not being aware Also, it’s
important for movement partner reps to be on mailing lists of their own
country.

My bad. Haven't noticed Rahul is also marked in the mails.

Post by Subhashish Panigrahi
Sorry, I don’t find the argument — that Rahul hasn’t replied back
because he isn’t there in the mailing list — a strong one.

Completely agree that he should reply.
Regards
-Sudhanwa
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[Satdeep Gill]

Hi Yohann,

1. I would like to know more about the fact that who was the inviting
person for this informal meetup? Can you also share the record written
invitation?

2. Since, this was something that not a part of the official program of the
Wikimania, how was it deemed important enough to be attended?
(For example, what if some random person (such as Bodhi) sends an
invitation to (let's say Manav) attend and present about Punjabi
Wikimedians UG at Asia Meetup at Wikimania 2019.)

3. Since, the invitation was one particular meetup, was the possibility of
a remote participation considered? 2 WMIN representatives present at
Wikimania (Krishna and Viswa) could also have presented with the help of
the slides prepared by Rahul.

4. It would be great if the presentation can be shared on Commons, if it
hasn't been done already (If it's there please provide a link). Also, it
would be good if Rahul writes a report (if already not done) about his
participation in the whole event, just like the scholarship attendees.
(Just for information purposes, Punjabi UG has decided to ask all its
representatives at all national and international events to prepare a
report about their participation and to try and organize local events to
pass on the learnings.)

5. Sadly no one knew of the availability of this kind of support from any
organization. What Manav was saying that last year her session was selected
for the official Wikimania program and she didn't know whether any support
was available.

6. What should be the process for making such decisions in the future?
Let's start thinking about this as this is not just about one particular
incident but the decision making in the movement in general.

I am sure this has been a good learning for the chapter. I believe ensuring
transparency and adequate decision making process is very much required to
ensure that the wider community's faith in our organizations remain intact.

Regards
Satdeep Gill

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1. Edit-a-thon during Indian independence day/week (Tito Dutta)
2. Re: Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh (Yohann Thomas)
3. Re: Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh (Jayantilal Kothari)
4. Re: Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh (Bodhisattwa Mandal)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 00:35:32 +0530
To: Wikimedia India Community list
Subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Edit-a-thon during Indian independence
day/week
<CAEdAQ_gbt1piiBX7iKKG60sjd33vk=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hello,
A couple of Indian communities have plan to conduct small edit-a-thons
during/around 15 August. As of now, I know about Marathi, Telugu, and
recently Hindi has added an event page. Today morning I was talking on
Wikidata India noticeboard on Wikidata label-a-thon.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Indian_Independence_Day_2018_edit-a-thon
Thanks
Tito Dutta
Note: If I don't reply to your email in 2 days, please feel free to remind
me over email or phone call.
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Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 12:42:23 +0530
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Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
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Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you
to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many
times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my best
to clear all doubts.
1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to simply
attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers. You can
find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by notes which
carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he was a
speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia Affiliates
intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This theme would
be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons Meetup as well, as
mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated on
various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India would
also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in times
to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
community members on decision making for such exercises.
2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference 2018
& in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was during
the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your part,
to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should be
deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that
during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship to
its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he
is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk on
conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
the chapter board members
5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members and
its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are
unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time &
effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
binds us :)
--------

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a single
word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to make
it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to the
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal meetups,
there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if one
steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup,

then

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup.

Can

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that

scholarship

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal

meetups

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
the documentation of his invitation?
[1]

https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
[2]

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already

there

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who went there
with full scholarship. You can check that president's participation is

not

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the informal
meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they considered

unfit

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend

the

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because

Rahul

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't take

it

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Yohann Thomas
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I
can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your questions.
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's
meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan attended

the

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General

Secretary

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present

in

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting on
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a

huge

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting,

where

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two

members

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia India
is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion

on any

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid

volunteers &

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there

was a

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties

towards

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as

user

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't

financially

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
independent & is still dependent on external funding which is fraught

with

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles

in

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional roles to
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers

around

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's

meeting

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in

relation

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter

before his

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles. I
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is going
through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question

is why

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from

India

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have

attended the

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 13:37:14 +0530
To: Wikimedia India Community list
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
<CAM2AHeb-HPVPuK1yG83gbAJ4kcC0NMYy=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hello,
I edit on Telugu Wikipedia & Wikidata. I generally only read and not write
on mails.
Why so much negativity taking place?
Earlier it was about reports. When reports are there the issue is about
meeting was not important. Let us is good faith assume that note has been
taken and transparency in future will be maintained.
Thanks,
జయంఀిలటల్

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you
to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many
times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my

best

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
to clear all doubts.
1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by

notes

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he

was

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons

Meetup

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated

on

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India

would

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in

times

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
community members on decision making for such exercises.
2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference
2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was
during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your

part,

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should

be

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that
during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship

to

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he
is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk

on

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
the chapter board members
5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members

and

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are
unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time

&

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
binds us :)
--------
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Yohann Thomas
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a

single

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to

make

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to

the

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal

meetups,

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if

one

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup,

then

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup.

Can

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
you please provide some documentation, where it is written that

scholarship

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal

meetups

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
the documentation of his invitation?
[1] https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_
April_20%2C_2018
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_
Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018
3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who

went

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
there with full scholarship. You can check that president's

participation

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend

the

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because

Rahul

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't

take it

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas
personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I
can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your

questions.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the

link

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_
meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan

attended the

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General

Secretary

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present

in

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting

on

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a

huge

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting,

where

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two

members

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia

India

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion

on any

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid

volunteers &

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there

was a

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties

towards

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as

user

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding

which is

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles
in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional

roles to

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers

around

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's

meeting

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.
https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_
meeting_July_20,_2018
With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund

its

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in

relation

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter

before his

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles.

I

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is

going

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question

is why

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from

India

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have

attended the

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________
Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

--
Regards,
Jayantilal
Sent from my iPhone
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 14:58:23 +0530
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimania tour of Rahul Desmukh
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Hi Yohann,
Thanks for the detailed reply. Much appreciated.
So, to summarize your mail, WMIN president got written invitation to speak
in the informal meeting of chairpersons during Wikimania and WMIN
officially requested CIS-A2K to fund him to attend the meeting without
depriving any Wikimedian in waiting list for scholarship and CIS-A2K funded
him to attend the entire Wikimania. Right? So, according to WMIN, this was
a valid request from WMIN to CIS-A2K, I presume, as you are defending about
what WMIN did.
Assuming good faith, I am believing all your words. Still, I don't
understand, why only 1 volunteer in the waiting list attended the
conference and next 2 in the queue were not funded. I am not talking about
Jayanta Nath and Aliva Sahoo, they both declined, I am talking about the
next 2 people in the queue.
Also, can you please share the letter of invitation, so that we know, who
sent the letter and everything becomes transparent.
By the way, I never said, chairpersons meeting was any random meeting, I
said it was informal meeting, like stewards meeting, asian meeting etc.
Informal means which is not related to Wikimania official program, there is
a difference between random and informal.
Echoing Manavpreet's valid query, can a Wikimedia volunteer with no
attachment to the chapter get similar special treatment of getting full
funds to attend Wikimania even if he/she doesn't get a Wikimania
scholarship but his/her presentation is selected and/or he/she gets
official invitation to speak in an informal meeting during Wikimania. Now,
from your answer, I hope there is no doubt about that volunteers will
receive such special treatment, because after all, the chapter does not
distinguish between board members and the volunteer community and we have a
prior example of WMIN president to cite. That is a great news for the
volunteer community as it opens up new opportunity for the communities to
participate in the conference. Alas! this we didn't knew earlier, we could
have sent more Wikimedians this year, but it's ok, the community will be
informed for next year and I hope, more such requests will be sent to WMIN
and CIS-A2K from volunteers in future. Of course, we will keep everything
open and transparent, unlike this time.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Dear Bodhi
I still feel, you haven't read my email word to word. I would request you
to go by the 24 hr email rule (if not more).. which I personally do many
times.
Pardon my grammar & also my line to line reply, as I'm relying on my
phone.. Since I'm traveling..
I will again try to explain point wise (where ever possible) & try my

best

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
to clear all doubts.
1) Mr Rahul Deshmukh, did not visit Wikimania, on scholarship, or to
simply attend a random meeting. He was invited to be one of the speakers.
You can find this on the agenda of it, during Wikimania.. followed by

notes

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which carry a description. The ‘Conflict Resolution’ theme on which he

was

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a speaker. This is generally a very long topic, on which Wikimedia
Affiliates intends to discuss and deliberate over a period of time. This
theme would be subsequently carried forward in upcoming Chairpersons

Meetup

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as well, as mentioned on the Meta.
If your memory serves you right.. During the Wiki Conference India 2016,
where you were also one of the organizers (& the both of us deliberated

on

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
various topics quite extensively) , several community members who had not
applied for the scholarship but had later approached CIS-A2K for the same
were awarded appropriately.
CIS-A2K had later informed the community about this decision.
In good faith, we assumed that, CIS-A2K did not inform the community
without having any specific interest in the exercise. Wikimedia India

would

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also like to place on record, that it could have initiated the process of
informing on its own. Wikimedia India would like to put on record, in

times

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to come not only it would inform the community but also engage with its
community members on decision making for such exercises.
2) Mr Rahul deshmukh had received an on record written invitation to
attend the meeting and be a speaker on ‘Conflict Resolution’. The above
said invitation was shown to CIS-A2K, when requesting them for travel
assistance.
*I have not stated anywhere that he received an invitation during the
Chairpersons meeting at WMCON18*. He had attended Wikimedia Conference
2018 & in it had participated in the movement strategy discussion. It was
during the movement strategy discussion that he received the invitation.
3) The chapter has full faith and belief in all its board members
in both, individual and collective levels. This invitation was to the
particular individual based on his expertise in the chapter and in
the movement. Chapter has never considered any of its board members unfit
to represent it. Personally, I feel Bodhi, it is very unfair on your

part,

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to even make such allegation that the chapter would even, consider such
a scenario. A well wisher of the chapter would never make such comments.
4) The Chapter is not of an opinion that the community members should

be

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deprived of scholarship. Wikimedia India would like to put emphasis that
during its grant tenure, Wikimedia India used to provide two sponsorship

to

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its community members & we value the joy, which a volunteer gets, when he
is informed that, he is going to Wikimania.
However, in this scenario , none was deprived on anything. As I have
repeatedly said, Mr Rahul Deshmukh was invited to attend and give a talk

on

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
conflict resolution. Since it was about the affiliates & partnerships
amongst them, the chapter approached another affiliate CIS-A2K and CCing
the chapter board members
5) The Chapter does not make any distinction between its board members

and

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its community members. Unlike CIS-A2K, Wikimedia India board members are
unpaid volunteers, similar to its community members, who give their time

&

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effort towards the community.
To Sum the entire email, the chapter has made a valuable learning, of
engaging the community in a more effective way in the future.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
P.S. - Neither your previous email, or any other email can affect our
friendship, Bodhi .Our passion & commitment towards the movement, is what
binds us :)
--------
On Sun 5 Aug, 2018, 12:27 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Yohann Thomas
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your reply, much appreciated.
I have read your previous e-mail very carefully, without missing a

single

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word.
My question still stands. Many apologies, if I have not been able to

make

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it clear in my previous mails, so I am adding some more perspective.
1) Chairpersons meeting in Wikimania is informal. It's not related to

the

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main program of Wikimania. For example, like many other informal

meetups,

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there happens to be a steward meetup every year in Wikimania. Now, if

one

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steward, who have not received scholarship, is invited in the meetup,

then

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he/she will have to spend his own money to attend the meeting. Same
principle lies here, participation for chairpersons meetup is not
eligibility criteria to gain a scholarship as it is an informal meetup.

Can

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you please provide some documentation, where it is written that

scholarship

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would be provided to attend informal meetups? Because if that is true,
everyone will find someone to invite themselves to attend informal

meetups

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in Wikimania and ask for scholarship from WMIN from next year.
2) I have checked and rechecked the minute[1] and event page[2] of
chairpersons meeting of Wikimedia Conference, Berlin. Nowhere there is a
proof that he has attended that meeting. So, I have doubt that he was
invited at all because there is no point to invite someone who didn't
attend the meeting previously even he was present there. Can you provide
the documentation of his invitation?
[1]
https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/chairpersons_meeting_April_20%2C_2018
[2]

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_April_20_2018

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

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3) As I said earlier, even if I believe that he was invited, already
there were 2 EC members (Viswa and Krishna) present in Wikimania who

went

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there with full scholarship. You can check that president's

participation

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is not at all mandatory. Why WMIN didn't told them to attend the
informal meeting of chairpersons on behalf of the Chapter? Are they
considered unfit or incapable to attend the meeting, if yes, why so?
4) Lastly, Wikimania and Wikimedia Conference are not the same. Whereas
Wikimedia Conference is for affiliates, Wikimania is for volunteers. So,
sending an affiliate representative with the donation money, depriving a
Wikimedia volunteer who was in the waiting list and supposed to attend

the

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Post by Yohann Thomas
conference, is utter misuse of power and money. Can you please explain
that?
5) Lastly, did WMIN inform the volunteer who was supposed to attend the
conference, that Rahul Desmukh has been sent instead of him, because

Rahul

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is the president of WMIN whereas he is just a volunteer?
I am sure, you will read my e-mail carefully as I did to yours. Also, I
hope this mail won't affect the friendship between us and you won't

take it

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personally.
Waiting for your detailed reply,
Bodhisattwa

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
(sorry for the delay, just following the 24hrs email rule)
Hi Bodhi
I would request you to please read my email completely. If you want, I
can give you an excerpt of my email, which should answer your

questions.

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal

Post by Yohann Thomas

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
//In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier
attended the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India &
then subsequently was *invited* to Wikimania, especially the
Chairperson's meeting at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the

link

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below.

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018

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Post by Yohann Thomas

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With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund its
trip & they accepted his proposal. //
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
On Fri 3 Aug, 2018, 18:33 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi Yohann,
Thanks for your mail.
If you check the link of chairperson's meeting, you can see, that many
participants were not president of any affiliates, they attended the
meeting on behalf of the president. For example, Nahid Sultan

attended the

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meeting on behalf of Wikipedia Bangladesh (WMBD) as the General

Secretary

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of WMBD. It is not mandatory to join the meeting as a President of any
affiliates, usually, if one representative of an affiliate is present

in

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that conference, he can represent the affiliate.
In Wikimania 2018, 2 EC members, Viswa Prabha and Krishna Chaitanya
Velaga, were present and one of them could have attended the meeting

on

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behalf of WMIN. Can you please explain, why WMIN decided to spend a

huge

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amount of donation money to send WMIN president to attend a meeting,

where

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his presence is not at all mandatory. Does WMIN consider these two

members

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unfit to attend such meeting?
Waiting for your reply,
Bodhisattwa
Dear Bodhi & other community members
First of all, I would apologise for the delay in reply. Wikimedia

India

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is run by 7 board members(as you are already aware) & any discussion

on any

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topic, requires inputs from all of them.. Since all are unpaid

volunteers &

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have their own professional lives apart from Wikimedia India, there

was a

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delay in drafting a reply.
As it is a well known fact, Wikimedia India is a volunteer run
organisation. There are board members, who discharge their duties

towards

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the chapter, as well as serve their regional communities (as well as

user

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groups) in their volunteer roles.
Another well known fact is that, Wikimedia India still isn't
financially independent & is still dependent on external funding

which is

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fraught with regulatory hurdles, including obstacles related to FCRA.
Having said that, many community members juggle their different roles
in community, affiliates, committees & in personal & professional

roles to

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attend different conferences run by the Wikimedia & its volunteers

around

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the world.
In a similar way, our President Mr Rahul Deshmukh had earlier attended
the Berlin Wikimedia Conference representing Wikimedia India & then
subsequently was invited to Wikimania, especially the Chairperson's

meeting

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at Wikimania. You will find the agenda in the link below.

https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Affiliate_Chairpersons_meeting_July_20,_2018

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With this invitation , Rahul Deshmukh had requested CIS-A2K to fund

its

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trip & they accepted his proposal.
Going a little off topic & concluding my email, I would really want to
appreciate & acknowledge the work done by Abhinav on & offline in

relation

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to the chapter. Eventhough Abhinav, prematurely left the chapter

before his

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term expired, he still continues to support the chapter on different
issues, inspite of us still battling with all our regulatory hurdles.

I

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wish there were more such vocal well wishers, when the chapter is

going

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through a difficult time.
Regards,
Yohann Thomas
Secretary
Wikimedia India
----
On Fri 27 Jul, 2018, 12:32 Bodhisattwa Mandal, <

Post by Bodhisattwa Mandal
Hi,
WMIN chapter president Rahul Deshmukh attended Wikimania 2018 in Cape
Town without being selected for any type of scholarship. My question

is why

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was he sent to the conference depriving other community members from

India

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who were in the waiting list.
He spoke in the informal chairpersons' meetup for few minutes. The
meeting doesn't require president of the organization's presence, and
already there were 2 EC member of WMIN present, who could have

attended the

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Post by Yohann Thomas

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meeting.
To me, this is utter misuse of power and abuse of donation money.
Thanks,
Bodhisattwa
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