Discussion:
Answer to Manavpreet's question to why Wikimedia India Chapter is not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the movement ahead as much as CIS-A2K
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Yohann Thomas
2018-08-06 03:50:47 UTC
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Raw Message
DISCLAIMER: My following email is being sent as a volunteer and community
member & not as a board member of Wikimedia India.

Dear Manavpreet & other community members

I will try my best to answer this question using comparative analysis, why
this is happening & will be very informative for you & others.. Who have
this query.. & i obviously would want other community members to chip in,
in case u miss something out.

*CIS-A2K*

*Employees : *7 (full time & part time)
[I would also like to mention that for administrative work of any
organization like Financial audit, bookkeeping & meeting statutory
obligations, these 7 team members are not involved & to perform those
duties & the team of finance & administration team CIS is involved.So, we
can say total. Of
7+4=11 employees]
(Reference : https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/CIS-A2K/Team
https://cis-india.org/about/people/our-team)

*Funds received from **from WMF for the year 2017-18* : 180,000 ISD
(1,20,00,000 INR)
(Reference :
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/FDC_recommendations/2016-2017_round_2
)

Note:CIS receives funds from many other donors, but we are talking here
specifically of CIS-A2K team, whose annual plan is funded by the APG

*Wikimedia India* (WMIN)
*Employees : 0*

Board members:7
(All Board members are unpaid volunteers who have their own professional
lives apart from running the chapter)
[I would also like to mention that all these board members are also
involved in administrative work of the organization like Financial audit,
bookkeeping & meeting statutory obligations & WMIN has no special staff for
this]

(Reference : http://wiki.wikimedia.in/Executive_Committee_Members)

*Funds received from WMF for the year 2017-18 :* 0 INR
(I must mention that Board members have applied for Rapid grants from WMF
to organise workshops & events)

Now, why hasn't Wikimedia India not received funds from WMF & the problems
pertaining to that has already been discussed in previous mails & community
members, who are curious, can look up the India mailing list archives, but
inspite of all adversities, Wikimedia India has a very active board who are
managing with whatever little resources the chapter has, using their time &
sometimes even their own money to organise events.

Manav, I somewhat agree with your point that the chapter is not taking as
many initiatives as much as CIS-A2K, to take the movement ahead, & yes to
some point, there is a big disconnect between the community & the chapter.
But, I see an opportunity here for you & many others who see this problem,
and can be very vital to bridge this disconnect & be part of Wikimedia
India on an active basis.

Now Im sure, you must be thinking , that you are a part of Punjabi User
group, that I'm doing well in my user group, why would i want be part of
the chapter.... Well i would say that you can be part of a national
identity.. Fix the system & take the chapter ahead, as a binding force
between the user groups of India.

I therefore request you & all others to be part of Wikimedia India on an
active basis. Personally, I feel that the Chapter, in entity, truly
represents what it means to be a Wikimedian & it is like every Wikimedian
around the world, who put in its time & resources to spread the sum of
knowledge.

Regards,
Yohann

------
Hi Asaf, Wikimedia India community members and CIS A2K Team,
I am sorry for intervening in this whole discussion but I feel the
discussion is deviating from the primary concern as we have received
another mail where a number of concerns have been raised in response to the
primary issue raised by Bodhi. My subscription was faulty and thanks to
Sailesh who fixed it and I got a digest of emails. From what I've learned
through the emails, Wikimedia India representatives are usually sent to
attend the annual wiki gatherings like Wikimedia Conference and this time
it was Wikimania. I am sorry to state that we (community) have never been
approached by anyone from the Chapter to discuss issues, events, Training
or to offer some assistance. We have only one point of contact for all our
issues and plans and that is CIS A2K Team. When Wikimedia India Chapter is
not taking initiatives to bring the communities together or to take the
movement ahead, then what is the purpose of their representatives attending
these events, what do they have to impart to other wikimedians there? and
how are they using the learnings in progressing the movement?
Can someone please clearly address these questions and then we can discuss
the other issues raised in the different thread.
Regards,
Manavpreet Kaur
On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 3:42 PM, Amritasya Putra <
Why doesn’t my email reach this list? I have been a member for, like
three years.
Certainly, we can wait. But please understand I did not assert WMIN (or
anyone) needs to apologize. Please reread and you'll find I posed it in a
conditional, as *one* possible outcome of resolving Bodhisattwa's concern.
I also described another possible scenario.
A.
Hello Asaf,
In consent with my last mail on the thread, please be assured, no
discussion whatsoever will take place until WMIN replies to the concerns,
the community takes its time to question, inspect and interrogate the
matter. Yes, all other issues will be raised on a separate thread and in
good spirit only after this matter is resolved. As Subhashish pointed out,
the issue is not about one person or an institution but bettering the
process. That is essentially the reason they had been brought up.
Asaf, It is always nice to hear from you. You have always followed the
Indian community closely and helped it in whatever way. We all appreciate
that. I would look forward to hearing about the better methodological
processes of debates and discussions on resolving community matter. This
would also help us in the future course. The Indian community is
progressing in resolving its disputes in a peaceful and coherent manner and
we wish to learn more of this.
In continuity with my second paragraph, it would be great if you guide
us on this. This would make the community inclusive and self-sustaining. I
am not very happy that when the matter is sub-judice in the people's court,
you holding WMF office, is talking about on ways WMIN can apologize. To
re-iterate, provide us with methodological solutions and leave the
community to decide.
Also, I am not sure since you holding WMF office should advise about
distractions.concerning the second point clearly deals with conflicts in
Wikimedia Foundation policy. Of course, the platform could be a reason and
for that, we will make sure we do not jump across topics. In fact, when we
move ahead on those issues (only after resolving the principal problem) I
would encourage you to be a participant (representing WMF). There are few
essentially questions concerning few community members regarding WMF
policies which I may share with you personally, whatever you find
appropriate can be further asked on the community mailing list.
At last, I have spoken to different EC members. Two EC members have also
written to me stating that they will reply about WMIN stand. They have
assured me that they will reply as soon as possible. As a past EC member, I
would like to tell, finalizing a WMIN stand takes some time since EC
members need to discuss, deliberate and then provide to their consent. As
you all are aware unlike CIS-A2K or WMF, Wikimedia India is a voluntary
organization, EC has his/her own personal life (own office work etc), hence
at times, it takes some time. However, a reply will follow-up very shortly.
To sum up, no more discussions please, let's stick on the principal
query, please.
Abhinav
Folks,
As an outside observer, may I encourage everyone to try to keep this
one thread about its one, original topic? Abhinav, I found your responses
defensive and distracting -- listing other issues and other groups about
which concerns can be raised is a very poor response to *this* concern
raised on this thread. By all means, raise those concerns if you want to
pursue them (rather than merely use them as distraction on this thread),
*in a separate thread*.
I encourage the WMIN EC, which is the body accountable to its
membership and to the broader communities in India, to address
Bodhisattwa's concern directly and politely, as befits an organization
aiming to be representative of the entire movement in India. *Please*
don't respond with bluster, nor with [[whataboutism]]. If there was some
poor governance or inappropriate decision-making involved here, just own up
to it, apologize[1], and commit to doing better. Everybody would
appreciate you for doing the right thing.
If the appearance Bodhisattwa's concern responds to is *incorrect*, by
all means, calmly respond with the facts as they are and demonstrate to the
community that there is nothing to be concerned about. Also reflect on how
that appearance was created despite everything being okay, and what can,
and should, be done to prevent such appearances in the future. Thinking
about this, and sharing your conclusions, would also, I dare say, be
welcomed by the community on this mailing list.
I look forward to this matter resolving peacefully one way or another,
but please, let us stick to the substance of *this* thread on this thread,
and let us be fair and honest and avoid manipulative arguments and
insinuations.
Warmly,
Asaf
[1] may I humble offer an essay I once wrote on the power of apologies
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public...
Hello Bodhisattwa,
The first line of the mail which at 12:02 by Indian Standard Time, you
stated, "I understand you are felling bad with my tone....I am sorry" .
Apologies for getting this statement wrong, If I have.
I would say, let us first address the point 1 which concerns response
from WMIN. Other things can be put on *hold* and discussed,
subsequently. I hope you would be in consent with this.
I have received your mail concerning your Wikimania trip and
allegations. I would like to re-iterate, neither then nor today, Wikimedia
India pays any attention to those allegations. To my understanding (since I
am not EC) Wikimedia India continues to have full faith in you.
Rest assured, please be cautious, you are sending a little too many
emails. I understand at times such issues happen but try and address them
together. This would otherwise lead to spamming.
Abhinav
On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 5:15 PM Bodhisattwa Mandal <
Hi Abhinav,
1. Now that Bodhisattwa has acknowledged on his inappropriate
tone and it can be believed he would be a caution for future onwards and
since the issue is in public domain, I would urge Wikimedia India to
respond on this.
Sorry missed this part,
Where have I acknowledged that my tone was inappropriate? I only said
that, if you feel that the tone was not approprate, then I am sorry. To me,
my tone and my question are absolutely ok. Along with many others, I have
noticed a discrepancy and asked about the reason it in open mailing list,
so that everything remains transparent. I had to name the person involved,
otherwise the question seemed to be vague and meaningless. Everything I
said in my first e-mail was hard fact, almost everyone from India
participating in the conference knew about it and had the same question in
mind. If my (and others) question is invalid, then why there is no response
from WMIN, refuting everything after 6 days?
So, instead of diverting the topic, if we stick to and discuss the
topic in which the thread was initiated, that would be great.
Thanks
Bodhisattwa
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